SV: what does sutta denote?

Lance,

One of the most interesting passages in which sutta is found is D II 124 = A II 168. It occurs in the locative singular-sutte-and contrasts with vinaye. Buddhaghosa starts out explaining that sutta in this connection refers to Vinaya and sutte means suttavibha.nge. He goes on explaining that vinaye means the khandaka and he quotes an interesting-and I would say original style paatimokkhasutta: vinayaatisaare from the cullavagga II 306 where other similar suttas are quoted. This means that the canonical passage on this interpretation only refers to the paatimokkhasutta and the khandaka.
Then Buddhaghosa continues explaining the passage in such a way that it covers all of the then known canon, which is understandable as he would like to see the passage as one involving all of the canon. However, I tend to think that the first explanation which I assume is based upon older material is the right one.

Lamotte devoted a well-known article to this passage and rejected Buddhaghosa´s interpretation as fantastic. However, he overlooked that sutte cannot mean "in the sutras."  Even the Buddhist Sanskrit tradition imitates the loc. sg. However, we have no reason to believe that monastic discipline and the rules of the paatimokkha were not of greater concern to the early Buddhists than the suttantas. I believe that this interesting text was inserted in the Mahaaparinibbaana-suttanta by its redactors to illustrate how to proceed when claims about discipline would be raised after the cremation of the Buddha and he no longer could be addressed as an authority on matters of discipline. Conflicts that were started by questions related to discipline are well-known. It is highly unlikely that the text would have dealt with the authenticity of the canonical texts as a whole. Thus questions relative to the authenticity of the canonical text are not at stake on this interpretation.

Ole



-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 04 October 2008 12:46
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] what does sutta denote?

Ole,

The problem with this argument is that the list of three, four or nine literary forms is specifically a description of dhamma. But dhamma doesn't necessarily include vinaya; rather, the two are contrasted. So while sutta in Vinaya contexts may well refer to the Pātimokkha and derive from sūtra, that is unlikely to be the case in this list.

In this list it seems to be a synonym for suttanta or suttanta may refer especially to larger discourses. If so, sutta should correspond to Sanskrit sūkta; so Pali sutta in the Nikāyas (or in this list) would be equivalent to suvutta.

It does seem correct that sutta does not appear in the plural. (The exception is various uddānas and the like that are part of some, probably later, editing process.) This could be taken to mean that the term sutta is actually later than suttanta. That would depend on how one explains the form -anta-. Or, suttanta may have been felt to be a weightier form, giving more respect.

We may note that the list of nine literary forms is largely an Aṅguttaranikāya list. It does not occur in either the Dīghanikāya or the Saṃyuttanikāya. In the Majjhimanikāya (M III 115; cf. Peṭ 9f.; Nett 128) we meet the early form: suttaṃ geyyaṃ veyyākaraṇaṃ. Probably we have suttaṃ here rather than suttantaṃ to obtain a sequence of waxing syllables and to put suttaṃ in first place.

And of course the sāsana is only referred to as ninefold (navaṅga or
navavidha) in very late portions  of the Canon.

Lance


Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> sutta is mentioned first in the old list of literary form in the Pali
> canon sutta.m, geyya.m, etc. Now sutta (always referred to in the
> singular) denotes the Paatimokkha (presumably an early form) -
> commented in the Suttavibha.ga of the Vinaya. sutta contrasts with
> suttanta (often referred to in the plural in the Pali canon) the assumed speeches of the Bhagavat.
> 
> Ole Holten Pind
>  

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