Re: Creating a Pali Tipitaka and Pali Literature Wiki-space

navako wrote:

> Bhante,
>
>
>
>> Maybe the problem with the links to other editions and manuscripts
>> in other scripts is that very few scholars will know all the Asian
>> scripts ...
>>
>>
>
> The Roman-only approach (for this kind of digital resource) is
> problematic from two different perspectives: (1) It actually removes
> the scholars from the source text by a significant degree of
> separation/alienation,
>
>
> (2) Although Romanization can be construed as empowering a very small
>  number of PTS-dependent scholars, it is also disempowering to the
> various indigenous Buddhist communities --some of whom are scholars,
> some are monks, and some just laypeople with a moderate degree of
> interest and application.
>
>
It was not in my mind to create a Roman only edition. It is easy to
convert a text from one script to the other by conversion programs. The
VRI CSCD system where the same Chattha Sangayana text can be viewed in
different scripts is a good example. The digital Buddhajayanthi can be
viewed both in Sinhala and Roman script.


> On balance, I think that a great deal is lost in Romanization (and
> current methods are problematic; the reduction of euphonic
> elisions/combinations to individuated words separated by nasal sounds
> is a real desecration of the source texts --and this whole business
> of inserting the apostrophe (') creates ambiguities in Romanized Pali
> that simply aren't there in original MS).
>
I agree. The latest trend in Pali scholarship is not to add apostrophes
and capitals and do as little punctuation as possible.
howevertobecompletelyconsistentonewouldhavetoleaveoutallspacesbetweenwordslikeinasianmanuscriptsIdontthinkyouwouldliketoreadatextlikethisdoyou


> Besides which, why have such low expectations of western scholars?
> They can learn a few different scripts.  I'm 26, and I can Pali in
> read 5 or more different scripts (*not* including Roman); anyone who
> intends to sink more than a few months into study can extend their
> knowledge of one Indic script to include others --but if you become
> reliant on Romanization, it is a big effort to ween yourself off of
> that dependency.
>
>
In the Pali suttas the concept of yobbanamada ``the pride/intoxication
of youth'' is mentioned...

>> ... even to learn one or two scripts takes a lot of time and
>> effort.
>>
>>
>
> I really don't think it takes more than two weeks, if you already
> know one Asian Pali script, to learn a second or a third one.
> Developing excellent penmanship requires more patience --the hand is
> slower than the mind.
>
>
>
Wow! This might be the case for you but it will not be the case for me
(I learnt Sinhala, Devanagiri, and Khom) and most Westerners and Asians.
How many Thais know the old Siamese Khom script? Very few. However, most
will be able to read Roman script. Did you learn the various closely
related scripts of Laos and Northern Thailand. In this case I understand
that it is easier.

>> Could you clarify: ``(3) the ability for participants to "mail in"
>> their suggestions and corrections.''?
>>
>>
>
> I just meant that someone could systematically collect and reply to
> e-mails that have caught/reported errors.  Aside from the "e-" in
> "e-mail", this is the same low-tech method that was used to write the
> Oxford English Dictionary.
>
>
This seems to contradict what you wrote in your last message: ``(An open
wiki format is likely to reduplicate labour) --and put an undue
editorial stress on a single "system operator".

>> By the way, microfilm scanning machines are very expensive and I
>> wonder if the quality would be good enough.
>>
>>
>
> I picked up a microform reader off the sidewalk in Toronto
> --literally, a free Microform reader.  All that it needed was a new
> lightbulb.  Some "micro-" formats can be printed onto paper by a
> relatively simple zoom & xerox procedure; the "roll" formats (used
> for archived newspapers, etc.) generally require a specialized reader
> & printer --however, these can be cheaply purchased (second hand)
> from architects and mechanics.  Until recently, almost every major
> architecture and machine-tools firm needed this kind of equipment
> --now most of them are selling them off cheaply
>
>
   I was referring to microfilm scanners, not readers, ie, a machine
to digitally scan in microfilms, somewhat similar to the machines with
which one can scan in slides, but much more expensive (I remember
vaguely something like US $30000,-) as they are custom made.
Do microfilm scanners also end up on the sidewalk in Toronto?

>> The British Museum library has microfilmed very few if any of its
>> huge collection of Pali manuscripts ...
>>
>>
>
> Almost none of the Pali MS in the U.K. have even been catalogued.
> When I contacted the Manchester U. library about the Rhys-Davids
> collection of Pali MS, they were blunt in saying that they had been
> put in a vault for many decades, and not seen by any human eyes
> since.  Generally, all Pali MS in Europe are neglected ( ... maybe
> Denmark is an exception) --and the old imperialist arguments that
> they're better off in the west than in the countries where they were
> produced has "worn very thin".  I'm the sort of rare Westerner who
> spoils everyone's dinner by saying aloud that the French ought to
> return all the Cambodian art they've stolen --and I've had a few
> amusing replies from Cambodian museum specialists.  For the record:
> *I* was paying for dinner, and a delightful time was had by all.
>
> Until now, I believe I was the only one on this list ever to complain
> about this history; however, I am accutely aware of the piratical
> methods whereby the British amassed their Indological holdings --most
> museums and libraries are quite vague as to where and when these
> things were "accessioned" --however, if you do the research, you can
> normally trace a specific MS to a specific massacre.  The "scorched
> earth policy" of the Uva rebellion doubtless justified the
> "preservation by way of theft" of many of the contents of temples in
> the area.  I should also note that the Thai government is now chasing
> up the U.S.A. for Buddhist relics, statues, etc., looted from the
> Issan country during the American presence there --the irony here
> being that the U.S. & Thailand were allies, not enemies, in that
> conflict.
>
>
I can not completely agree with you here.
As far as I know the Uva rebellion was before the time that the British
developed an interest in Pali, so the temple libraries might also have
been scorched.
By the time the Britishers (as they are called in Sri Lanka) invaded
Burma in the 1870s they had an interest and took many manuscripts back
with them.
The collections of Hugh Nevill and Bell, now in the British Museum, were
built up by buying and copying in the late 19th century early twentieth
century. I don't know about manuscripts being systematically looted here.
In any case, some Sinhalese kings also destroyed and looted temples. A
king of Burma in the 12th century apparently even waged war to get hold
of a Tipitaka set. The capital of Siam, Ayodhya, with all its artifacts
and temples was destroyed and looted by the Burmese in the 18th century.
Afterwards special Siamese council had to be convened because the
remaining Pali
manuscripts apparently were of poor quality.
The conditions in which manuscripts are generally kept in Sri Lanka are
frightening. One of the oldest manuscripts in Sri Lanka, a 13th century
manuscript of the Visuddhimaggatika, kept in the University of
Peradeniya got partly destroyed by mold because it was wrongly preserved
by an amateur and kept in the same moist cellar where the rest of the
2000 or so manuscripts are kept. Likewise in the National Museum Library
in Colombo there is no airconditioning and some manuscripts have been
misplaced or stolen and can not be found. In some of the temples I have
visited manuscripts are eaten by termites, cockroaches, rats and are
kept in cupboards with old newspapers and cutlery...  From what I was
told by Dr Filliozat it is impossible to see the manuscripts in the
National Library in Bankok and the situation in monasteries is similar
to Sri Lanka. I have some Pali manuscripts here and I can not think
about any place where I could give them to in Sri Lanka and trust that
they are kept well.
In contrast, the manuscripts in the collections in the Netherlands I
have visited are extremely well kept and accessible if one has a good
reason. The collections in England, etc, will also be well kept I am
sure and accessible if one turns up in person. They are neglected in the
sense that very few scholars have an interest in them, but not in terms
of physical conditions. I don't think that any of the manuscripts in the
West, Taiwan and Japan are unique and can not be found in Asia, so it is
good to have backups in the other places. If some Maoist revolution or
so breaks out here and many temples are destroyed then there will be
some Sinhalese manuscripts savely kept in some other place in the world.
The corruption is so bad here that one never knows for sure what will
happen to artifacts which are returned. Nevertheless, I believe it would
be good that manuscripts should be made more accessible to Asian
scholars by digitalisation and putting them on the internet.

Yours,
                 Bh. Nyanatusita

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