[palistudy] Re: Decline of Pali: reply to Rhett

Hi Eisel,

>
>I feel that he's trying to write direct, honest and open answers, and I want
>to begin my reply by stating that I appreciate his effort.

I figured you would appreciate a forthright response. Here comes another one.


>What we have here are two completely different issues.  I don't disagree
>with what Rhett says about critical editions, but it isn't actually related
>to what I said about scholars being alienated from indigenous sources,
>resources, and (above all) persons, because they cannot read the local
>scripts.

Is it an either/or thing? Must one either have romanized editions or
indigenous editions, but not both? Romanized editions seem to me like
a good way for westerners to get started reading Pali, and a natural
stepping stone to learning other scripts later.

>  A further issue: "critical editions" only mean that you're relying on
>someone else to have done the "critical reading" for you.  If you can sit
>down with a Burmese-Pali nissaya on one knee, and a Lanna-Pali nissaya on
>the other knee, you can do your own "comparative/critical reading".

That assumes you know Burmese and Lanna. I've worked some with H
Smiths's cited portions of the Burmese nissaya to Saddaniiti, and
while you can get some mileage out of a good list of the usages of
the particles, my guess is it really would take _at least_ a
full-time semester course in Burmese to be able to handle the
lexicographical glosses. This might be a good thing to learn, but it
would be a specialization. It would be Burmese at the expense of
something else.

>
>Actually, I making the further point that each region has its own "brogue",
>which, like the local script, a serious scholar should learn.

I think the best way to pick this up in the west would be to visit
Theravada temples and listen to the chanting, or chant along with the
iti pi so, etc. There are Sri Lankan and Thai temples all over Europe
and the USA. But again, demanding that every person learning Pali
learn all the 'brogues' of SE Asia strikes me as setting the
standards frighteningly high. Some people have an auditory talent for
language, some don't. Some are drawn to temples from an early enough
age to absorb the cadences of chanting, some aren't.


>; obviously, knowing Pali in multiple indigenous scripts
>is better preparation than none at all, but even then the relationship is
>quite complex.  Thai is, perhaps, the worst of all examples, where "c"
>becomes "j", final vowels are ignored, etc. etc.

This is all very interesting stuff, but as you mention yourself, the
indigenous scripts aren't going to help here much more than the Roman
script here are they?


>   No
>no, Rhett, your claim that "nothing would have been done at all" without the
>PTS rather shrivels when held up next to the searing light of all that has
>been done, and all that is being done, outside of that organization.

My point was not that nothing whatsoever would have been done. My
point was that none of the work done by PTS would have happened if
PTS hadn't existed, yet at the same time you were attacking PTS for
not having done more.


>   Let me be clear: the only people who have this hubris (this
>perverse notion) that the world of Theravada Buddhism is beholden to
>the PTS are those who totally rely on Romanized editions, and
>therefore are unaware of the wealth of
>resources that come from Asia, or even European organizations other than the
>PTS.

This opposition between the West and Asia seems to me to be entirely
unnecessary. You have swallowed a rather dull sort of inverted
prejudice, hook line and sinker, my friend.

>  >
>>  It's sounds almost like you're now blaming
>>  Britain for India and Sri Lanka having a caste
>>  system.
>
>Rhett, that is a completely absurd accusation; and there is nothing
>suggesting that in my text.

Granted. But given your wildly extremist position it wouldn't
surprise me if you said so, at least as a joke. Kind of like
inscription brahmi being the only truly universal script (universal
as in equally unintelligible for everyone).

>How long do you think you can sweep
>Rhys-Davids' historical lectures under the carpet?

I've never heard of them, so I guess they've been well swept. But as
I said, my interest is in learning Pali not studying the history of
the PTS.

>It is true, as you say, that the PTS is not exactly a closely knit coven.

When I signed up for my 20% discount I only had to provide a single
thumbprint in blood and swear eternal alliance to the Rhy-Davids
aryan conspiracy.


>  The U.S. dropped more
>bombs on Laos alone than it dropped on Germany and Japan combined during
>WWII; if you take the cash value of the bombs and divide by the number of
>days of the conflict, it works out to $3 million U.S. dollars EVERY DAY for
>NINE YEARS.

Yes, but for the most part it dropped them on the same limited parts
of the country, over and over. This is a horrible tragedy for all
those who were affected, but other parts of the country weren't
touched. And the fact is, there were wars in progress in SE Asia even
without US involvement. The US got involved, in a very shameful way I
might add, and made the situation worse than it needed to be in
several countries. But it was not solely responsible for the fighting.

>  I'm going to think the best of
>you here, and attribute your views on the matter to pure ignorance, rather
>than some impure desire.

Thank you. I'm going to attribute your radicalism and intolerance to
youthful exuberance.


>You do not know what
>you're talking about, and you're being extremely presumptuous and offensive
>in speaking from that position.  But then, what else would I expect from a
>member of the PTS except more of the same justification of western
>imperialism that the institution has been notorious for since Rhys-Davids?

Hmm... maybe you should rethink that idea about Brahmi script. I've
heard that Ashoka was a hell of an imperialist before he converted.
And Pandukabhaya with his hill of severed heads, not to mention
Dutthagamini... I'm afraid Sinhalese is out. Burmese... nope, Thai..
not even. We're running fast out of politically correct scripts.
Perhaps we'd better dispense with writing altogether and return to
committing the texts to memory.

best regards,

/Rett