Re: Chiggala Sutta

Dear Jim and everyone,

Another interesting post from another list which you might find
interesting,


> There are two Chiggala Suttas, one following the other. The first
one says
> "after the elapse of a long time" (diighassa addhuno accayena),
referring
> to the period it would take the turtle to put his head through the
hole, or
> a denizen of the lower realms to obtain a human birth.
>
> The second Sutta is similar, but emphasizes not the duration but the
> unlikelihood of the turtle putting his head through the hole. To
make this
> point, the second Sutta brings in two changes:
>
> 1) Instead of "great ocean" the Sutta speaks of the entire earth
becoming
> covered with water.
>
> 2) The phrase "after the elapse of a long time" is replaced by
"adhiccam
> ida.m", translated by Thanissaro as "sheer coincidence" and by
Bhikkhu
> Bodhi as "by chance".
>
> The usual Thai translations of adhiccam are "mai mii patchai"
(having no
> cause/reason) or kert kheun loi loi (happening/arising casually).
>
> The commentaries give ahetunaa (without a cause) and akara.nena
(without reason) as synonyms.
>
> In colloquial English we might say it would just be a lucky fluke if
> some being ever succeeded in escaping from the lower realms.
>
> To reconcile this oddity with the more usual Buddhist teachings on
> conditionality, Bhikkhu Bodhi comes to the rescue with an endnote,
saying:
>
> "The statement has to be taken as rhetorical rather than
philosophical in
> intent. At the doctrinal level, all three occurrences mentioned here
come
> about through precise causes and conditions, not by chance."
> (Connected Discourses II 1965)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert Eddison


Dear Robert Edd,

Thank you very much for your clear and concise explanation, (and for
the unexpected Thai!) 

I suppose there are controlling factors, like all our accumulations
through all the kamma accumulated through samsara, and the strength of
some kamma that would have to bring results in the present or the next
lifetimes, such as the achievement of nibbana or kamma performed to
the Buddha or the arahanta or even to one's parents.  The rest of the
more or less mundane kamma would be so innumerable and unpredictable
to us, if not to the Buddha, to foretell what will happen even in the
next instant, much less in the next lifetime, so that in a way it is
much like a game of chance. 

All we could do is to increase the odds in our favor by accumulating
as much panna to be able to get out of the game, or at least ensure
that we would no longer be born in the waters of the lower birth
realms, I think.  Or even accumulate panna and kusala to have more of
a chance of finding the yoke again, even if as a blind turtle
surfacing every century only.  This our citta and cetasika, more
precisely our cetana and chanda could be accumulated to do, and sati
and panna could arise to study realities as they really are instead of
being discouraged or incredulous. 

Of course I am mostly addressing myself here, though I firmly believe
that the study of the present as taught in satipatthana is provable
and applicable anywhere any time, even now as we read this, visible
objects can be studied which are so different from sound or thinking,
and the characteristics of each reality could add to panna knowing
things as they really are; impermanent, ever changing, and
uncontrollable.  We are lucky enough to be born in the yoke this life,
and we should study the Buddha's teachings as much as we can to get
out of the sea and into the world of air and light, and from there
perhaps out of samsara entirely!

Thanks again for your explanations, and anumodana in your studies,

Amara

I hope you won't mind my reposting the above on another list, also,

A.