Re: Ablative/-to

Hi Tadao,

I think I may have found the answer to your question. It's a nominative -to,
not an ablative -to. My solution is based on sutta 496 in the Saddaniti and
the Dhammapada com. on the passage in question. This is what I found:

496. Itinaa niddisitabbe to.
            Iti-saddena niddisitabbe pa.thamatthe kvaci to-paccayo hoti:
"di.t.thicaritaa ruupa.m attato upagacchanti [Nett 111]; subhato na.m
ma~n~nati baalo [Sn 199]; aniccato . . . vipassanti [Tikapa.t.thaana 156]."
Tattha attato upagacchantii ti 'attaa' ti ga.nhaati, esa nayo itaratra
pi. -- Saddaniiti p. 681, H.Smith ed.

My translation:
496. -to in what is to be exhibited with the word 'iti'.
             In some cases there is a -to affix in the sense of the first
case [nominative] to be exhibited with the word 'iti': "Those of the
view-temperament approach form as 'self'; a fool thinks of it as
'beautiful'; they see [a faulty state] diversely as 'impermanent' . .
."Therein, [they] approach [form] as 'self': they take [form] to be thus:
'self', this is the method for the other cases too.

Now look at this line in the Dhammapada a.t.thakathaa on verse 12:

asaara.m 'asaaro ayan' ti ~natvaa. -- DhpA I 114 pts
Having known the non-essential [to be] thus: 'this is non-essential'.

It seems that many have been translating 'saara.m' as either truth or real.
I wonder if this is correct because in the commentary we have "siilasaara.m
samaadhisaara.m pa~n~naasaara.m vimuttisaara.m vimutti~naa.na-
dassanasaara.m paramatthasaara.m" in the explanation of 'saara.m'.

I'm not sure if the same Saddaniti rule can also apply to 'visesato' in
verse 22. See DhpA I 229-30 for the explanation there.

This has been a good exercise for me. I had been working on this problem for
two days and then I suddenly found what I think is the right answer. I think
it's a very important and probably a common usage in the Pali texts. So
knowing about it should help us a lot in reading Pali. I think 'as' or 'to
be' is fine for expressing this relation. I would suggest quotation marks
around the word with the -to affix eg: having known the real as 'real'.

Best wishes,
Jim

>Hi, Jim and other Pali friends:
>Here I have a question on Pali.
>The question is from the Dhammapada.
>In the verse No 12, there is a use of
>ablative/-to, which I cannot quite understand:
>    Saara~n ca saarato ~natvaa
>    asaara~n ca asaarato,
>    "Those who know the real to be real
>     and the unreal to be unreal"
>     (from Ven. Buddharakkhita's translation)
>
>The "-to" of "saarato" and "asaarato" must be
>the ablative case.
>But does the ablative case have
>the function of expressing the notion of "as" or
>"to be ---" (in Ven, Buddharakkhita's rendition).

>If it does, it is part of the regular use of the
>ablative case? Or is this kind of use associated
>only with the "-to ablative"?
>(The same kind of the ablative use seems to
>appears in the verse No 22. Eta.m visesa-to ~natvaa.
>But at least here, it may not be impossible to treat
>"visesa-to" as an adverbial).
>At any rate, does Jim or other Pali friends
>like to answer my question? (My Pali is so rusty.)
>tadao


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