Re: consciousness unestablished

Dear Nina,

>Daer Jim, thank you so much for the useful corrections. Pa.ti again:
>unestablished better than not re-established. Pa.ti does not have the
>meaning of re, although pa.tisandhi is often translated as rebirth, to
>indicate that there is birth and birth again, is that right?

Yes, that is how I understand it but I wouldn't rule out the 're-' in 'not
re-established'. In the list of meanings for 'pati' I think 'vicchaaya.m' or
'punakriyaaya.m' (repetition) might apply to both pati.t.thita and
pa.tisandhi.

>I noted the term kara.navacana.m as meaning :instrumental case. I should
>remember that.

I now think 'an expression in the instrumental <case>' would be a more
appropriate translation of 'kara.navacana.m'. I have also seen
'bhummavacana.m' (an expression in the locative <case>) in the commentaries
too.'-vacana.m' is also seen in other grammatical terms (in grammar books)
such as: bahuvacana or puthuvacana (an expression in the plural <number>)
and purisavacana (an expression in the masculine <gender>), etc.

>I could stare a long time on the last part, really difficult. You added:
>that alone, but is there "alone"?

'alone' was my translation of 'eva' in 'tadeva'. I also thought of 'just
that' and 'only that'. I'm reading 'eva' here as a particle of restriction.
CPD also notes other uses as a particle of affirmation or emphasis but I
haven't thought much about them in this passage. The 'yadeva . . . tadeva .
. . construction is a rather new one for me.

>In the case of Vakkali, the parinibbaana
>must be not: upadisesa nibbaana, nibbaana with the khandhas remaining, but
>anupadisesa nibbaana, without the khandhas remaining, final passing away.
>Thus, I think that non-establishing and parinibbaana amount to the same.

And the commentary also seems to be saying that the cause (kaara.na) is the
same for both.

>The cause, condition for attaining this is the eradication of all
defilements.
>But how to model the last part so that it becomes more meaningful? A
>suggestion, it may be wrong: but at the end, after non-establishing of this
>consciousness, the cause of parinibbaana.Thus, instead of: is, a comma.

I'm afraid I don't know quite what you mean. The following might help. The
CPD gives one of the uses of 'iti' as: . . . sometimes causal ("so thinking,
arguing thus" =) "on this account, for this reason"; . . . I thought this
might be applicable to the 'ti' in 'parinibbaanakara.nan ti'.

". . . but in the commentary 'because of <consciousness> being
unestablished' is said for this reason: just that which is the cause of the
non-establishing of this consciousness is the cause of parinibbaana." (note
that the 'tassa' before 'vi~n~naa.nassa' might be 'his' instead of 'this')

>Yadeva, as ya.m, useful information, because it occurs often.
>There is no better way to learn Pali, I find, and to get deeper into the
>texts, than actually translating, and I feel most grateful that you take so
>much trouble to make individual corrections. It is a great opportunity for
>me. Many thanks, Nina.

You're most welcome! It's also a great opportunity for me to learn more.
I have done some work on your translation of the AN I.49 commentary. One of
the reasons I get delayed is that I'm always running into something new in
the Pali passages so I have to do some studying to get a better
understanding. One recent example was finding out more about the so-called
partitive genitive of 'niilaadiina.m'. There will be yet another delay as I
think I should next start working on Sarah's list of passages to check. So
after that I'll try and get back to your translation. Then a reply to
Tadao's message after that ...

Best wishes,
Jim


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