Re: pa.tipatti

--- In palistudy@..., ppp <miyamoto@...> wrote:
> Hi, Amara:
> With respect to Thai orthography, I've heard that nowadays
> many Thai words which originate in Sanskrit and Pali do not retain
> their original spellings but they are spelled as they sound
> (e.g ratha-yan"ta" (vehicle), where the whole final syllable with a

cancellation
> marker has ceased to be written). How do you feel about the

latest/modern
> Thai orthography? Do you think that Thai words have to written as

they
> sound or their spelling should reflect their etymology.
> I am curious to have your opinion.


Hi Tadao,

I think that although the Thai language has practically no real
grammar, the spelling and pronunciation rules are very precise, and
much like the French rules, once you know them, you can read and write
anything, with very few exceptions and of course homonyms (although
there are plenty of those!).  I think the current rules add an
interesting etymological note as to the roots of the words, and a
visual variety although quite a few of the letters share the same
sounds!  Originally there must have been many more sounds to the Thai,
which we lost somehow through the centuries, I think, it is
interesting to imagine that it might be the beetle nut culture that
lost us some of the plosive sounds, for obvious reasons!!!  You know,
the way the Madrilenos blurred their speech through the influence of
the court built around the Hapsburg chins of a line of slurring
monarchs…  Did you notice Thais never end the words with plosives and
such, only with ng, n, m, y, w, g, d and b?

Nowadays we still stick to the laid rules, although in proper names
instead of using the pali romanized equivalent, like in my own last
name, the younger generation spell it according to the Thai
pronunciation rules, in which case my last name would be be pronounced
chayapohng (Pali: Chayabongse).  Unless there are other vowels
indicated, two consonants together suppose the sound 'oh' to be
comprised in the first consonant, much like the sound 'a' is
understood as the automatic sound of the Pali and Sanskrit consonant.
  The word 'mn' would be read 'mana' in Pali and 'mohn' in Thai, for
example, except in Pali terms read by Pali literates in a Thai
sentence!!!

ratha-yan"ta" is literally motor (yan"ta") vehicle (ratha) and the
'raw reuah' - our name for the consonant 'r' followed by 'th' 'thaw
thung' would be pronounced 'rohd' because the end of words only
comprise of ng, n, m, y, w, g, d and b sounds!  yan"ta" would be just
'yohn'

>
> (Occasionally, I use McFarland' Thai dic. to understand the
etymology
> of words I am interested in. His dic. and the Thai-Thai dic./Royal
> Edition are best sources for an etymological study.)

I'm not familiar with McFarland' Thai dic, but the Thai-Thai dic. 
Royal Edition is the one my friend Varee bought for me, indeed a great
source.

> Here is another question. Do you know that many Thai words and Khmer
> words are exactly the same (e.g. number terms). What is your idea:
> do you think that Thai borrowed these words from Khmer or vise versa
> (or the borrowing was a bi-directional)? Tadao

I think it could have been both ways, don't you?  We absorbed a lot
from the ancient Khmer, especially the vocabulary used with the royal
family in court, 'saweuiy' is Khmer for the verb to eat that is still
currently in use for royalty, prince and upwards, although for the
king and queen it is sohng saweuiy and such.  Khaneuiy is the royal
pillow (our normal ones are mauhn) etc.  These are also still current
Cambodian words.  But for a long time many Thai princes and then their
descendants were sent to rule these parts before the French wrenched
them from us, so a great deal of the old Thai might have been added to
the Cambodian language through the centuries as well, the court or
ruling power being such an important cultural center in any society
(witness Mao and the cultural revolution!  Remember the little red
book?!?  and that only in a few years, not over generations of
influence). 

And since the royal library was destroyed by war with the rest of
Ayudhaya, and those in Cambodia mainly by the communists and such, it
is very difficult to trace any of this with any support from the
ancient texts!!!  The French also did their part to sever any ties
their colonies in the old days had with Thailand, so I guess we are
free to a great extent to let our imagination run wild!  Besides both
languages were greatly influenced by Pali and Sanskrit as well as the
vedic language of the brahmins.

Still, I'd really like to hear your opinion as a linguist why Thai
court language should be filled with Khmer words even nowadays, Tadao.
  Do you have any theories about it?  I would love to hear them! 

I'm not sure what you mean by the 'number terms' but I think Thai
numbers have always been this way as far back as the oldest records,
and even in Thai tribes that settled in southern China and Vietnam
over a thousand years ago.  (nuhng, song, sahm sii), etc.  I don't
remember Khmer numbers, but I have a friend who speaks Khmer, and will
ask her about it and report further, but perhaps you have studied this
also?  I think this is certain to be a Thai heritage though, even if
the court language might prove to be 'imported'!  The funny thing
about the court language is that during the Sukhothai period these
formalities were not yet established, at least not during the days of
King Ramkamhaeng (and his famous stone inscriptions), and although
Thais ruled Cambodia up to the colonialization, the Cambodians never
once ruled Thailand after Sukhothai, still, several Khmer words ended
up as our court language…  Which is why I suspect it came with the
deifying of Thai Kings, you know, as Hindu demigods 'Rama' this and
that, that the 'Khmer' (or Brahmin ) words became the royal
vocabulary.  Or did it start in Thailand and spread in Cambodia with
our princes who became their kings? 

What's your opinion, Tadao?

Amara