Re: ubhato again

Dear Nina,

>dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ti aruupajjhaanena vikkhambhanavimokkhena,
>maggena samucchedavimokkhenaa ti dviihi vimuccanabhaagehi,
>aruupasamaapattiyaa ruupakaayato, maggena naamakaayato ti dviihi
>vimuccitabbabhaagehi ca vimutto.
>
>dviihi bhaagehi vimutto: freed by the two parts of freedom thus: by the
>deliverance of suppression with the immaterial jhaana, by the deliverance
of
>cutting off with the path; and (freed) from the two parts to be freed thus:
>from the material body with the attainment of the formless, from the mental
>body with the path. (my rough translation)
>
>N: this is clear, but just a gram.question: vimuccitabba : he ought to or
>should be freed, correct? You mentioned that you would say something about
>this -abba form, that would be interesting. But of course, there is no
>hurry.

The suffix is 'tabba' and belongs in the same group with 'aniiya' and 'ya'.
I will try to put together a list of special uses of this suffix in a future
post like I said I'd do for 'sevitabba'. I have to do some more study.

>J: An interesting comment on 'vimutto':
>
>vimutto ti kilesehi vimutto vimuccanto ca; kilesaana.m
>vikkhambhanasamucchedehi kayadvayato vimutto ti ayamettha attho.
>
>Notice 'vimuccanto' -- your 'being freed'!
>
>N: vimucca, passive form. I met it in DII, 9 (p. 148): about the royal
>splendour of the king who is (being?) honoured (mahati): Mahaccaati pi
>Paa.li, mahatiyaati attho.<< He was honoured>, is the meaning> .Is this
>example correct?

The passive form would have been 'mahiiyati' (see PED: mahati). What I'm
reading in 'mahaccaa ti pi paa.li, mahatiyaa ti attho.' (DA i 148) is that
'mahaccaa' is an alternative reading for 'mahaa ca'. 'mahatiyaa' is the
singular of the feminine adjective 'mahatii' in the oblique cases (here:
instrumental). The masculine form would be 'mahataa' (instr. of mahaa). The
two c's in mahaccaa is a result of sandhi: tiy (ty) > cc and so it is just a
variant of mahatiyaa. In 'mahaa ca raajaanubhaavena' the com. understands
'mahaa' in the sense of the instrumental. The com. also says that there is a
change or substitution of gender (lingavipallaasa) in the feminine
'mahaccaa' so it should be understood as if it were the masculine 'mahataa'
modifying 'raajaanubhavena'. I found this passage a fairly difficult one to
decipher.

>pa.thamattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ubhatobhaagavimutto,
>dutiyattheravaade ubhato bhaagato vimutto ti ubhatobhaagavimutto ti,
>tatiyattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi dve vaare vimutto ti ayam etesa.m viseso.
>
>N: dve vare: is this accusative: as to the two occasions? Now I find it
>difficult to know the subtle differences between what the three theras
>state, but as you say, it may become too complicated. I shall just look at
>the grammar, the: dve vare.

J: I agree that 'dve vaare' is in the accusative (second case) plural but
not as the direct object/patient of 'vimutto'. Perhaps the usage corresponds
to Warder's description on p.18: ... to express the pure duration of time or
casual point of time. I think this may relate to the rule at Saddaniiti 581:
kaaladdhaanam accantasa.myoge (time or length in full duration). eg. tayo
maase abhidhamma.m desesi (he taught abhidhamma for three months). The
anutika has 'dvikkhattu.m' (twice) as an interpretaion of 'dve vaare'. (PED
vaara: turn, occasion, time, opportunity).

>Thank you very much for all the remarks and corrections. I just only
started
>to look at the netti texts. The sutta reference I cannot find,
>baahitikasutta, where is it?

The sutta is MN no. 88. The page numbers are those of the printed Myanmoar
edition of MN. The sutta starts at M ii 112.

>What would you like us to do, it is quite long, but we could try little by
>little, or do you have something else in mind? Should I not rather start
>with an easier text, but of course, nothing is easy. It would not hurt to
>start this one, but not too much at a time. I really follow your advice to
>us.
>I printed it out and then took it off the computer, because I did not know
>beforehand that I might do something with it. If you advise us to translate
>parts (or each of us one part?) I would need it on the computer again. In
>that case, could you please send it to me again if it is not too time
>consuming? Thank you very much. But it may be better to start with an
easier
>text. What do you think? Meanwhile I keep on reading DII Co, but sometimes
I
>get stuck with some words. Now it is all about the retenue of the king,
>tesa.m pariyante... (Not translated by Ven. Bodhi).
>Many thanks again, Nina.

I posted the Netti commentarial passages mainly for others to look at and it
wasn't really intended as an assignment but it's open for translation if
you're interested. I started to translate a bit of it and will just try
finishing the short atthakatha passage before posting and perhaps continue
working on the other passages in small portions as time goes on. If you'd
like the passages back in your computer and want me to send you a copy
off-list just let me know. I will be reposting the Pali with the translation
so you could just wait instead. I can easily post a short paragraph-sized
sutta for a translation exercise anytime so I might do just that. The list
has an unpredictable nature so one never knows what will happen from day to
day. There is likely to be a lot of jumping around from topic to topic some
of it for beginners and some of it for the more advanced student. And there
should be lots of backtracking and going over the same topics repeatedly.
There's really nothing that anyone is required to do here. It's left up to
each member as to how much work or involvement he or she wants or has the
time for.

Best wishes,
Jim


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