Dear Jim and Nina,
I just got back from Tokyo and am behind on letters. Just to say
I read all the posts on this and like the way you explain the
grammatical points as you give the translation Jim.
I'm going to forwrd some exchange I've been having with Teng kee
in case anyone has something to add about the duration of the
sasana.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
> Dear Nina,
>
> Thank-you for your response and all your comments. I have
> looked over your
> translation below and have inserted my corrections, comments,
> and some
> translations (for you to compare with). I hope you will find
> them helpful
> and of interest. Please ask for further clarification if
> desired.
>
> > The following excerpts are taken from the Samyuttanikaya
> commentary and
> > subcommentary on the passage you're interested in. That's
> all there is --
> > explanations of the words 'ubhatobhaagavimutta' and
> 'pa~n~naavimutta'.
> >
> > ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
> > aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa,
> agga-maggena
> > naama-kaayato ti. pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa
> > tevijjaadibhaava.m appattaa khi.naasavaa. -- PTS SA i 278
> (a.t.thakathaa)
> >
> > [subcommentary:]
> > ubhatobhaagavimuttaati ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato
> vimuttaati.
> > ayamettha atthoti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa
> ...pe...
> > naamakaayato"ti iminaa. tevijjaadibhaavanti
> > tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
> > pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividha.m appattaa kevala.m
> pa~n~naaya
> > eva vimuttaa. -- Myanmar SA.T 1.291 (.tiikaa)
>
> NVG:
> You handed me a nice present, the commentary texts, thank you.
> Here goes my translation, and corrections are appreciated, I
> am here to
> learn: first the co:
>
> > ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
>
> NVG: freed in both ways: being freed in the two parts
> (bhaago).
>
> JA: For 'dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa' I'm inclined to translate
> this as '<are>
> freed from two parts'. The past participles (eg. vimutta) are
> mostly in
> the past tense but your 'being freed' is in the present tense.
> I don't know
> for sure if this is right or wrong. I believe some past
> participles can have
> the force of the present tense although in this instance I
> think 'being'
> should perhaps be avoided. 'in both ways' is a common
> translation for
> 'ubhatobhaaga' but one also finds 'in both ways' for just the
> 'ubhato' part
> alone which leaves 'bhaaga' untranslated. 'ubhato' consists of
> the
> pronoun 'ubha' (both) and the affix 'to' which make it an
> indeclinable
> (nipaata) in the senses belonging to the fifth or seventh
> case, singular or
> plural. The syntactical relation of 'ubhato' to 'bhaaga' is
> unclear to me
> but according to the interpretation 'dviihi bhaagehi' it's as
> though only
> the pronominal adj. 'ubha' it being read without the meaning
> of the
> indeclinable affix 'to'. Edgerton in his BHSD has 'emancipated
> from both
> parts' for his ubhayatobhaagavimukta entry.
>
> I wonder if the terms: tevijjaa, cha.labhi~n~naa,
> ubhatobhaagavimuttaa, and
> pa~n~naavimuttaa in the sutta (S i 191) are all functioning as
> nouns
> (individuals) or as adjectives or could they be either. The
> Puggalapa~n~natti treats these terms as nouns.
>
> > aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa,
> agga-maggena
> > naama-kaayato ti.
>
> NVG: he is freed from the material body by the attainment of
> aaruupaavacara
> (aruupajhaana), and freed from the mental body by the highest
> path
> (aggamagga).
>
> JA: 'he is freed' is in the wrong number for the plural
> 'vimuttaa'.
> A 'vimutto' would call for the singular. I would perhaps
> replace 'he is'
> with 'are' to indicate a plural. Notice your use of 'from'
> instead of 'in'
> as in your previous sentence. The two parts (bhaaga-s) refer
> to 'ruupakaaya'
> and 'naamakaaya'.
>
> > pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa tevijjaadibhaava.m
> > appattaa khii.naasavaa.
>
> NVG: freed by pa~n~naa: he is freed by pa~n~naa: he has
> destroyed the
> aasavaas without having attained the threefold knowledge etc.
>
> JA: Again, 'he is' & 'he has' should both be in the plural.
> You didn't
> translate '-bhaava.m'. Perhaps: 'without having attained the
> state of
> <possessing> the three knowledges, etc.'
>
> Now the subco:
>
> > ubhatobhaagavimuttaa ti ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato
> vimuttaa ti.
>
> NVG: freed in both ways: he is freed in both parts, by both
> parts.
>
> JA: the subcommentary reads the fifth case plural for
> -bhaagehi
> and -bhaagato. This is a good example of how aome Pali phrases
> taken
> together do not translate well into English. A literal
> translation would be:
> 'from both parts freed: from both parts, from both parts
> freed' which
> doesn't make much sense until one reads it in Pali.
>
> > ayamettha attho ti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa,
> aruupaa ...pe...
> > naamakaayato"ti iminaa.
>
> NVG: This here (ayamettha) is the meaning. He shows by this
> (iminaa) : <
> freed by two ways, aruupa...etc. ...he is freed from the
> mental body >.
>
> JA: I take 'ayamettha attho' to be the patient of 'dasseti'
> ie: He shows:
> 'this here is the meaning' with this: '<are> freed from the
> two parts,
> aruupa . . . <are freed> from the mental body.' Or simply put:
> he shows x by
> means of y.
>
> >tevijjaadibhaavan ti
> tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
>
> NVG: The threefold knowledge and others (aadi) are existing,
> the threefold
> knowledge, the six abhi~n~naa, the four discriminations
> (pa.tisambhidas).
>
> JA: The state of <possessing> the three knowledges, etc: the
> state of
> <possessing> the three knowledges, the six superknowledges, or
> the four
> discriminations.
>
> > pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividha.m appattaa kevala.m
> pa~n~naaya
> > eva vimuttaa.
>
> NVG: pa~n~naavimuttaa: he is thus freed entirely by pa~n`naa,
> without having
> attained the threefold knowledge.
>
> JA: For freed by wisdom <they are> freed entirely by wisdom
> alone without
> having attained <any one of> these three kinds [enumerated in
> the previous
> sentence].
>
> NVG:
> kevala.m, wholly, entirely, seems to put a lot of stress on
> pa~n~naa.
>
> > I find the groupings in the sutta a little odd. Couldn't the
> tevijja and
> > cha.labhi~n~na monks also be included in the
> ubhatobhaagavimutta category?
>
> NVG:
> In the freed both ways catagory are included those with the
> eight
> attainments: ruupajhaanas and aruupajhaanas, or just by
> aruupajhaana. This
> has been explained in Wheel351-353, The Jhaanas, by Ve.
> Henepola (he gives
> many texts) and also Ve. Bodhi, The Great Discourse on
> Causation, in the
> Intro. There are variations, some texts, the Puggalap~n~natti
> give the
> ruupajhaana and aruupajhaanas, whereas other texts mention
> just the
> aruupajhaanaa for this distinction in freedom. I think that it
> depends on
> the headings, the different angles.
> Now, the threefold knowledge, and then the six abhi~n~naas are
> additional
> distinctions, also the four discrimination mentioned in the
> subcommentary.
> My personal opion, I would like Robert's comment, is that this
> is the reason
> for mentioning them separately in the commentary. Also: three
> times 60 may
> be a reason for this classification.
>
> JA: Thank you for the detailed and helpful explanation. This
> is a difficult
> subject for me.
>
> NVG:
> Is there more in the commentary, I would like to know more
> about the
> circumstances, why such a great percentage of arahats is just
> pa~n~naavimuttaa.
>
> JA: There is nothing more about this in the SN com. on the
> sutta. My guess
> is that pa~n~naavimutti ranks lower than ubhatobhaagavimutti.
> The higher the
> attainments the fewer there are that reach them.
>
> NVG:
> P.S. this address is different from the psg group address, I
> mean all this
> for the group. What is correct?
>
> The correct address to use to post directly to psg is:
>
> palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
>
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