Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants

Dear Sarah,

>like jaran said, many thanks for all your time and
>work here. Pls take it as read that even if we don't
>reply or thank you for each post that it's being read
>and is of interest. I'll just put in one or two simple
>technical qus:

Thanks Sarah, Jaran, and the rest of you. I don't need to be thanked for
each post before you get another one. It's just that I have been busy
responding to private messages off-list from Amara and now Robert. Also
there were some stuff that came up on dsg regarding sabhaava and your query
concerning Mahakassapa that I'm still mulling over. Usually, I find writing
one or two messages a day is enough for me.

I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Amara as a new member. There
are now seven of us and it is possible that Bruce may be joining us a little
later.

>> The (33) consonants are: ka kha ga gha "na, ca cha
>> ja jha ~na, .ta
>> .tha .da .dha .na, ta tha da dha na, pa pha ba bha
>> ma; ya ra la va sa
>> ha .la a.m
>
>do you have any recommendation for remembering the
>order as I always (still) get in muddle when checking
>in dictionaries?

My next lesson will deal with the vaggas, the 25 consonants from ka to ma in
five groups of five. Once you understand why the letters are arranged in
this particular order they'll be easy to remember. You'll have to wait until
we get to sutta 23 before you get all the information for a full picture.
It should be noted that there is a slight difference in the order of letters
used in the PED which places the .m between 'o' and 'ka', and .l after l.
There is also an .lha placed after .la. If you look up a word like a.msa you
will find it right near the beginning of the a's. Also, sa.m + ya, ra, va,
sa, or ha come before the entry 'saka' which some might find confusing. The
dictionary is following the Sanskrit order of letters.

>Why for e.g. are the last 2 at the end in that order?

This is how it is presented in the traditional Pali grammars. I view the
last four letters as a miscellaneous group unlike the way the other letters
are grouped together. A good way to remember the scheme of Pali
sounds/letters is the 8 + 25 + 8 = 41 formula. Just remember that there are
8 before and 8 after the 25 vagga consonants. I would also recommend that
one learn to recite the 41 sounds from memory just like you would the
letters of the English alphabet.

>What is the symbol "na representing? Is na, a typo or
>what is the comma for? also ma; - what is this?

The symbol "na represents the guttural n which is usually seen with a dot
above it in printed texts. It's the same n as in sangha (sa"ngha). I use the
same transliteration scheme adopted by the Pali Text Society on their
website and also by many Buddhist academics. There are only four
conventions to remember: the doubling of vowels eg. aa (long a), a period .
eg. .t is the t with a dot under it, the tilde ~ before n is the n with the
tilde above it, and the double quote " before n. Here's a quick mnemonic
key: (aa .t ~n "n). I put the commas and the semi-colon in to mark off the 5
groups of vagga consonants, the semi-colon marks the terminal point of the
25 consonants. I deliberately left them out when I first presented the 41
sounds and should have left them out with the consonants until I got to my
upcoming post on the vaggas.

>It might be useful to repeat the use of symbols you
>use as i'm still getting used to them. i find it
>rather amazing that on my typewriter i had in the 70s
>I had keys for various diacritics which I can't use
>easily on  my computer more than 20yrs later. (sorry
>for diversion).
>
>V.interesting that these take half as long as a short
>vowel- sth new to me.

That is, the consonant without the vowel. So if you were to calculate the
length of a short open syllable like 'ka' it would come out to one and a
half units and for a closed one like 'tat' that would be two units (half +
one + half).

>As the list keeps me pretty busy, pls note I'm often
>v.behind in reviewing here, hence my delayed comments.

Dsg also keeps me busy and away from this list. Regarding your question
about the qualities of shaking off, I think these are the five dhutadhammas
beginning with fewness of wishes (appicchataa). See Vism II.1. The Anguttara
commentary has some good explanations. I'm really impressed with your
skilful responses to Joyce who I remembered from d-l, a difficult individual
who insists on mixing up the teachings from different schools.

Best wishes,
Jim