Bryan,

You may find your answer in the attached file, where I have worked with the
Maha Vedalla Sutta.

Please feel free to give me any feedback where corrects or improvements
will help.

I have sent you the PDF offline, in case it cannot be delivered here.

With metta,

Piya


*hp (65) 8211 0879*

*The Minding Centre*
Shenton House
3 Shenton Way, #03-06 B
Singapore 068805

Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

> Bryan,
>
> Let me for the moment only address v*alañja,* which I think is better
> translated here (context is vital) as "trace, sign" -- as in the word for
> the Buddha's footprint (*pada,valañja*). Then, I think, we better
> understand that Buddhaghosa is simply referring to the meditation object or
> what remains of it as the meditator advances into more subtle states.
>
> In the 4 formless attainments--which are all rooted in the 4th dhyana--we
> see a gradual letting go or renouncing of the nimitta (such as even
> "nothingness" itself leading to the 4th formless attainment). All these
> descriptions -- even the mind in the 4th formless attainment -- I think
> shows that the mind is still "external" or externalizing itself in the
> nimitta.
>
> When the mind ("meditator") is able to let go even of all such external
> object or objectification, then the "signless" state is attained. This can
> refer to nirvana itself. From the suttas of Aguttara ch 9, we are told that
> such meditators can experience temporary moments of nirvana.
>
> This is very thin air, and this is as long as I can hold my breath. I need
> to get back to my sutta translation for more fresh air.
>
> Be well and happy, we rejoice in your sutta and Dharma work, Bryan,
>
> With metta,
>
> Piya
>
> *hp (65) 8211 0879*
>
> *The Minding Centre*
> Shenton House
> 3 Shenton Way, #03-06 B
> Singapore 068805
>
> Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
> Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org
>
> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@...
> [Pali] <Pali@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Pāli Friends,
>>
>> In the *Mahāvedallasutta*, Sāriputta talks about attaining, maintaining
>> and emerging from the signless deliverance of mind (*animittā
>> cetovimutti*). He also compares the *animittā cetovimutti* to four other
>> *ceto-vimuttis*, the immeasureable, and unshakeable liberations of mind,
>> and the liberations through voidness and nothingness. From the sutta:
>> "Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment
>> of the signIess deliverance of mind?"
>> "Friend, there are two conditions for the attainment of the
>> signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs and
>> attention to the signIess element. These are the two conditions
>> for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind."
>> "Friend, how many conditions are there for the persistence
>> of the signIess deliverance of mind?"
>> "Friend, there are three conditions for the persistence of the
>> signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs,
>> attention to the signless element, and the prior determination [of
>> its duration]. These are the three conditions for the persistence
>> of the signless deliverance of mind."
>> "Friend, how many conditions are there for emergence
>> from the signIess deliverance of mind?"
>> "Friend, there are two conditions for emergence from the signless
>> deliverance of mind: attention to all signs and non-attention to the
>> signless element. These are the two conditions for emergence from the
>> signless deliverance of mind." (*M*a*jjhima Nikāya, *Ñāṇamoli and Bodhi,
>> 393-394)
>>
>> Buddhaghosa has the following commentary on this section which I find
>> quite abstruse:
>> *idāni valañjanasamāpattiṃ pucchanto kati panāvuso, paccayā tiādimāha.
>> nirodhato hi vuṭṭhānakaphalasamāpattiyā ṭhiti nāma na hoti, ekaṃ dve
>> cittavārameva pavattitvā bhavaṅgaṃ otarati. ayañhi bhikkhu satta divase
>> arūpapavattaṃ nirodhetvā nisinno nirodhavuṭṭhānakaphalasamāpattiyaṃ na
>> ciraṃ tiṭṭhati. valañjanasamāpattiyaṃ pana addhānaparicchedova pamāṇaṃ.
>> tasmā sā ṭhiti nāma hoti. tenāha — “animittāya cetovimuttiyā ṭhitiyā”ti.
>> tassā ciraṭṭhitatthaṃ kati paccayāti attho. vissajjane panassā pubbe ca
>> abhisaṅkhāro ti addhānaparicchedo vutto. vuṭṭhānāyā ti idha
>> bhavaṅgavuṭṭhānaṃ pucchati. vissajjanepissā sabbanimittānañ ca manasikāro
>> ti rūpādinimittavasena bhavaṅgasahajātamanasikāro vutto.*
>>
>> Tentative translation:
>>
>> Now, asking about the attainment of *valañjana* (“use”; *ṭīkā*: “the
>> attainment of abiding by virtue of
>> the noble abiding”), he says, (*kati* *panāvuso, paccayā*), “How many
>> conditions are there, friend (for the attainment of the signless
>> deliverance of mind, for the persistence of the signless deliverance, for
>> the emergence…).” For what is called persistence of the attainment of the
>> fruit of emergence does not exist, it continues for one or two mind-moments
>> and descends into the life continuum.For this monk, having caused the
>> cessation of his formless activity (*arūpa-pavattaṃ*) after seven days,
>> sat down and did not remain long in the attainment of the fruit of the
>> emergence from cessation. But in the attainment of *velañja* (use), just
>> the determination of the time (of cessation) is the measure (*pamaṇaṃ*).
>> Therefore that which is called persistence (*ṭhiti*) exists. Therefore
>> he (Sāriputta) said , “(There are three conditions for) the persistence
>> of the mental liberation of signlessness (as noted above). “For the
>> purpose of long time (persistence) what are the conditions?” is the meaning
>> (of the question). And in his answer re: persistence, ”The former
>> preparation for it" (*pubbe ca abhisaṅkhāro*), that is, the
>> determination of the time (of cessation) was cited. *vuṭṭhānāya*
>> (conditions for the emergence from the signless meditation, as noted
>> above); now he asks about the emergence from the life continuum (
>> *bhavaṅgavuṭṭhānaṃ*). In the answer he says, “attention to all signs,”
>> and because of signs, starting with form, etc., attention arises at the
>> same time from the life continuum.
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> Does anyone know what the v*alañja-samāpatti *is?
>>
>> What is the relation between the *animittā ceto-vimutti* and the
>> *bhavaṅga*? Buddhaghosa seems to be equating the two in the above
>> passage.Are they the same or different? (or like the other
>> *ceto-vimuttis* in the sutta, both the same and different).
>>
>> Is the commentator stating that the persistence of the attainment of the
>> fruit of emergence will not last, unless one makes a pre-determination of
>> the time of cessation, or am I misreading this?
>> Any help would be appreciated,
>>
>> Mettā,
>>
>> Bryan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>


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