On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

Bryan,

You may find your answer in the attached file, where I have worked with the Maha Vedalla Sutta.

Please feel free to give me any feedback where corrects or improvements will help.

I have sent you the PDF offline, in case it cannot be delivered here.

With metta,

Piya

hp (65) 8211 0879

The Minding Centre
Shenton House

3 Shenton Way, #03-06 B
Singapore 068805

Meditation courses & therapy: http:// themindingcentre.org
Sutta translation: http:// dharmafarer.org

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

Bryan,

Let me for the moment only address valañja, which I think is better translated here (context is vital) as "trace, sign" -- as in the word for the Buddha's footprint (pada,valañja). Then, I think, we better understand that Buddhaghosa is simply referring to the meditation object or what remains of it as the meditator advances into more subtle states.

In the 4 formless attainments--which are all rooted in the 4th dhyana--we see a gradual letting go or renouncing of the nimitta (such as even "nothingness" itself leading to the 4th formless attainment). All these descriptions -- even the mind in the 4th formless attainment -- I think shows that the mind is still "external" or externalizing itself in the nimitta.

When the mind ("meditator") is able to let go even of all such external object or objectification, then the "signless" state is attained. This can refer to nirvana itself. From the suttas of Aguttara ch 9, we are told that such meditators can experience temporary moments of nirvana.

This is very thin air, and this is as long as I can hold my breath. I need to get back to my sutta translation for more fresh air.

Be well and happy, we rejoice in your sutta and Dharma work, Bryan,

With metta,

Piya

hp (65) 8211 0879

The Minding Centre
Shenton House

3 Shenton Way, #03-06 B
Singapore 068805

Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcent re.org
Sutta translation: http://dharmafare r.org

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [Pali] <Pali@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

Dear Pāli Friends,

 

In the Mahāvedallasutta, Sāriputta talks about attaining, maintaining and emerging from the signless deliverance of mind (animittā cetovimutti). He also compares the animittā cetovimutti to four other ceto-vimuttis, the immeasureable, and unshakeable liberations of mind, and the liberations through voidness and nothingness. From the sutta:

 "Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment
of the signIess deliverance of mind?"
"Friend, there are two conditions for the attainment of the
signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs and
attention to the signIess element. These are the two conditions
for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind."
"Friend, how many conditions are there for the persistence
of the signIess deliverance of mind?"
"Friend, there are three conditions for the persistence of the
signless deliverance of mind:  non-attention to all signs,
attention to the signless element, and the prior determination [of
its duration]. These are the three conditions for the persistence
of the signless deliverance of mind."
"Friend, how many conditions are there for emergence
from the signIess deliverance of mind?"
"Friend, there are two conditions for emergence from the signless deliverance of mind: attention to all signs and non-attention to the signless element. These are the two conditions for emergence from the signless deliverance of mind." (Majjhima Nikāya, Ñāṇamoli and Bodhi, 393-394)

 

Buddhaghosa has the following commentary on this section which I find quite abstruse:

idāni valañjanasamāpattiṃ pucchanto kati panāvuso, paccayā tiādimāha. nirodhato hi vuṭṭhānakaphalasamāpattiyā ṭhiti nāma na hoti, ekaṃ dve cittavārameva pavattitvā bhavaṅgaṃ otarati. ayañhi bhikkhu satta divase arūpapavattaṃ nirodhetvā nisinno nirodhavuṭṭhānakaphalasamāpatt iyaṃ na ciraṃ tiṭṭhati. valañjanasamāpattiyaṃ pana addhānaparicchedova pamāṇaṃ. tasmā sā ṭhiti nāma hoti. tenāha — “animittāya cetovimuttiyā ṭhitiyā”ti. tassā ciraṭṭhitatthaṃ kati paccayāti attho. vissajjane panassā pubbe ca abhisaṅkhāro ti addhānaparicchedo vutto. vuṭṭhānāyā ti idha bhavaṅgavuṭṭhānaṃ pucchati. vissajjanepissā sabbanimittānañ ca manasikāro ti rūpādinimittavasena bhavaṅgasahajātamanasikāro vutto.

Tentative translation:

Now, asking about the attainment of valañjana (“use”; ṭīkā: “the attainment of abiding by virtue of

the noble abiding”), he says, (kati panāvuso, paccayā), “How many conditions are there, friend (for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind, for the persistence of the signless deliverance, for the emergence…).” For what is called persistence of the attainment of the fruit of emergence does not exist, it continues for one or two mind-moments and descends into the life continuum.For this monk, having caused the cessation of his formless activity (arūpa-pavattaṃ)  after seven days, sat down and did not remain long in the attainment of the fruit of the emergence from cessation. But in the attainment of velañja (use), just  the determination  of the time (of cessation) is the measure (pamaṇaṃ).  Therefore that which is called persistence (ṭhiti) exists. Therefore he (Sāriputta)  said , “(There are three conditions for) the persistence of the mental liberation of signlessness (as noted above).  “For the purpose of long time (persistence) what are the conditions?” is the meaning (of the question). And in his answer re: persistence, ”The former preparation for it" (pubbe ca abhisaṅkhāro), that is,  the determination of the time (of cessation) was cited. vuṭṭhānāya (conditions for the emergence from the signless meditation, as noted above); now he asks about the emergence from  the life continuum (bhavaṅgavuṭṭhānaṃ). In the answer he says, “attention to all signs,” and because of signs, starting with form, etc.,  attention arises at the same time from the life continuum.

Questions:

Does anyone know what the valañja-samāpatti is?

What is the relation between the animittā ceto-vimutti and the bhavaṅga? Buddhaghosa seems to be equating the two in the above passage.Are they the same or different? (or like the other ceto-vimuttis in the sutta, both the same and different).

Is the commentator stating that the persistence of the attainment of the fruit of emergence will not last, unless one makes a pre-determination of the time of cessation, or am I misreading this?

Any help would be appreciated,

 

Mettā,

 

Bryan