Dear Venerable Kumara and Gerard,

back to the original issue:

Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 10:54 AM 07-01-13:

>D: I wonder whether he put it this way, as it is obvious according >to the suttas , that within the first Jhana the 5 senses media is >absorbed , and in the second , the 6xt sense .

Ven: I'm interested to know where you find the Suttas say that.


The matter has already been very well researched and explained by Richard Shankman in his book "The Experience of Samadhi". Geoff Shatz has also
done a good share of research, presented in Dhammawheel (by the name Ñana). E.g. Jhana According to the Pali Nikayas.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5761
As I can tell from their writing, both of them are experienced meditator. They quote much from texts to substantiate their view points, but
aren't speaking from mere textual understanding. They are well qualified to speak on the matter.



D: I started to read this thread of more 200 postings..which already by it's numbers confirms "Although the Jhanas appear very frequently in
the discourses of the Buddha (suttas), now two and a half millenna later there is no generally agreed upon interpretation of what exactly these
states of concentration are " (Interpretations of the Jhanas http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm )


and like to emphasize a conclusion by Geoff Shatz:

It might be worth mentioning again that there are basically three approaches to mental development in the context of meditation:


(i) attention training where one absorbs into a single object and thereby stills all mental factors to the point where, as Ajahn Brahmavamso explains, "Consciousness is so focused on the one thing that the faculty of comprehension is suspended . there is no comprehension of what is going on."

(ii) attention training where one attends to a single object and thereby calms and unifies all mental factors to the point where, as Leigh Brasington explains, "It is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own."

(iii) attention training where one attends to whatever occurs in the present moment (either with the aid of a support object such as abdominal movement, or choiceless awareness without the aid of a support object).

With this in mind, it's really a matter of what each of us has tried and found helpful for our own practice. All three of these approaches can be developed to the point of attaining the resultant state of that approach if one has the time and commitment to follow their chosen path of practice in a sustained, dedicated way.

It is only with the first of these three approaches that the five senses must necessarily be shut down and ceased for that resultant state to be entered and sustained. However, the lack of comprehension in this state makes it impossible for vipassana to occur while abiding therein.

The resultant state of the second approach allows for the mind to be internally unified while still fully comprehending the mental factors present. Thus vipassana can be fully present and functional while abiding therein. I consider the resultant meditative state of this second approach to represent an accurate assessment of jhana as it's presented in the suttas. Other people consider the resultant state of the first approach to be necessary. It's not my intention to debate this issue here. Obviously, everyone is free to make up their own mind regarding what they feel is necessary for their practice.

The third approach can eventually lead to the resultant state of the second approach, but it isn't a direct pathway to that state of mental unification. The level of concentration employed in this third approach is often designated as "momentary concentration." This approach can be applied as somewhat of a conjoined calm (samatha) and vipassana method. By using the instruction to follow the movement of the abdomen as one breathes and to come back to that as the support object after any distractions, this approach enables many practitioners to develop deep samatha in the course of their practice. Thus this approach can certainly lead to jhana. This is entirely in keeping with what is outlined in the suttas. I look forward to hearing what other members have to contribute to this discussion."

unquote

all 3 approaches are seemingly in line with the texts . As G.S. states " it's really a matter of what each of us has tried and found helpful for our own practice".

Well, I stick to the first , which refers clearly to absorption ..


with Metta Dieter






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