Dear Ven. Kumara and Gerard,

thanks for your comments.

I like to come back to this matter when I am return from my present travel, having my usual sources available then...

with Metta Dieter

-------- Original-Nachricht --------

> Datum: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:44:11 +0800
> Von: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
> An: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?

>
> >Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:29:14 +0800
> >To: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
> >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
> >Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?
> >Cc: gmblok@...
> >
> >Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.
> >
> >What you provided from various sources is a
> >mixture of description of Sutta jhana and Vism
> >Jhana, which is what people in general get too,
> >which is why it is confusing to many people.
> >
> >Referring to this translation in Nyanatiloka's
> >dictionary: "Detached from sensual objects, o
> >monks, detached from unwholesome consciousness,
> >attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
> >discursive thinking (vicÄ?ra), born of
> >detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
> >(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first
> >absorption," I suppose you meant the part that
> >says "sensual objects", right? If so, please
> >consider that it's translating "kama" (which
> >Ajahn Thanissaro would rather have as
> >"sensuality", which I think is a very accurate
> >translation). In no way does it say that one is
> >cut off from the 5 sense media (indriya).
> >
> >Also, translating 'piti' as 'rapture' is fine
> >for Vism Jhana, but not for Sutta jhana. 'Joy' will do.
> >
> >Another point: 'vivekajam pitisukham" makes more
> >sense when translated together as a noun phrase:
> >joy and happiness born of seclusion", while for
> >second jhana there's "joy and happiness born of composure (samadhijam)".
> >
> >Interestingly in Aj Thanissaro's more recent
> >translations, he uses 'composure' for 'samadhi'
> >here too, but has not changed his earlier translations.
> >
> >kb
> >
> >Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 09:16 AM 14-01-13:
> >>D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common
> >>translation) and burning up can be synonymously
> >>used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to
> >>first Jhana: sensual objects =5senses media
> >>,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
> >>(subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
> >>I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down,
> blind out
> >>
> >>PTS:JhÄ?na1 (nt.) [from jhÄ?yati,1 BSk.
> >>dhyÄ?na. The (popular etym -- ) expln of jhÄ?na
> >>is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows:
> >>"Ä?rammaṇ' ûpanijjhÄ?nato paccanÄ«ka --
> >>jhÄ?panato vÄ? jhÄ?naÅ‹," i.e. called jh. from
> >>meditation on objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally
> meditation
> >>
> >>Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
> >>„The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:
> >>(1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks,
> >>detached from unwholesome consciousness,
> >>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
> >>discursive thinking (vicÄ?ra), born of
> >>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
> >>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.
> >>
> >>(2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception
> >>and discursive thinking, and by gaining inner
> >>tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into
> >>a state free from thought-conception and
> >>discursive thinking, the second absorption,
> >>which is born of concentration (samÄ?dhi), and
> >>filled with rapture (pīti) and joy (sukha)."
> >>
> >>PTS provides following sources :
> >>The jhÄ?nas are discussed in extenso & in
> >>various combinations as regards theory &
> >>practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.;
> >>iv.217 sq., 263 sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq.,
> >>350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
> >>sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on
> >>Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.; ii.169 sq.; Vbh
> >>257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. --
> >>They are frequently mentioned either as a set,
> >>or singly, when often the set is implied (as in
> >>the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 --
> >>4 e. g. at Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by
> >>sotÄ?panna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
> >>222; S ii.278 (nikÄ?malÄ?bhin); A ii.36 (id.);
> >>iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M i.21, 41, 159,
> >>203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985;
> >>Dh 372; J i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. --
> >>Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
> >>294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181;
> >>1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A ii.41; iii.325;
> >>v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D.
> >>Buddh. Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs.
> >>trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N. for more refs.; also
> Kasiṇa.
> >>
> >>I suppose that misunderstandings occur when
> >>theory ( contemplation of samma samadhi as an
> >>object of contemplation within the framework of
> >>Maha SatiPatthana) and practise --see standard texts- is not
> distinguished.
> >>
> >>Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.
> >>
> >>
> >>With Metta Dieter
> >>
> >>P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the
> >>delay of postings, no answer so far
>