>Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:29:14 +0800
>To: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
>From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?
>Cc: gmblok@...
>
>Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.
>
>What you provided from various sources is a
>mixture of description of Sutta jhana and Vism
>Jhana, which is what people in general get too,
>which is why it is confusing to many people.
>
>Referring to this translation in Nyanatiloka's
>dictionary: "Detached from sensual objects, o
>monks, detached from unwholesome consciousness,
>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
>discursive thinking (vicāra), born of
>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first
>absorption," I suppose you meant the part that
>says "sensual objects", right? If so, please
>consider that it's translating "kama" (which
>Ajahn Thanissaro would rather have as
>"sensuality", which I think is a very accurate
>translation). In no way does it say that one is
>cut off from the 5 sense media (indriya).
>
>Also, translating 'piti' as 'rapture' is fine
>for Vism Jhana, but not for Sutta jhana. 'Joy' will do.
>
>Another point: 'vivekajam pitisukham" makes more
>sense when translated together as a noun phrase:
>joy and happiness born of seclusion", while for
>second jhana there's "joy and happiness born of composure (samadhijam)".
>
>Interestingly in Aj Thanissaro's more recent
>translations, he uses 'composure' for 'samadhi'
>here too, but has not changed his earlier translations.
>
>kb
>
>Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 09:16 AM 14-01-13:
>>D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common
>>translation) and burning up can be synonymously
>>used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to
>>first Jhana: sensual objects =5senses media
>>,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
>>(subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
>>I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down, blind out
>>
>>PTS:Jhāna1 (nt.) [from jhāyati,1 BSk.
>>dhyāna. The (popular etym -- ) expln of jhāna
>>is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows:
>>"ārammaṇ' ûpanijjhānato paccanīka --
>>jhāpanato vā jhānaŋ," i.e. called jh. from
>>meditation on objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally meditation
>>
>>Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
>>„The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:
>>(1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks,
>>detached from unwholesome consciousness,
>>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
>>discursive thinking (vicāra), born of
>>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
>>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.
>>
>>(2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception
>>and discursive thinking, and by gaining inner
>>tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into
>>a state free from thought-conception and
>>discursive thinking, the second absorption,
>>which is born of concentration (samādhi), and
>>filled with rapture (pīti) and joy (sukha)."
>>
>>PTS provides following sources :
>>The jhānas are discussed in extenso & in
>>various combinations as regards theory &
>>practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.;
>>iv.217 sq., 263 sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq.,
>>350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
>>sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on
>>Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.; ii.169 sq.; Vbh
>>257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. --
>>They are frequently mentioned either as a set,
>>or singly, when often the set is implied (as in
>>the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 --
>>4 e. g. at Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by
>>sotāpanna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
>>222; S ii.278 (nikāmalābhin); A ii.36 (id.);
>>iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M i.21, 41, 159,
>>203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985;
>>Dh 372; J i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. --
>>Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
>>294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181;
>>1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A ii.41; iii.325;
>>v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D.
>>Buddh. Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs.
>>trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N. for more refs.; also Kasiṇa.
>>
>>I suppose that misunderstandings occur when
>>theory ( contemplation of samma samadhi as an
>>object of contemplation within the framework of
>>Maha SatiPatthana) and practise --see standard texts- is not distinguished.
>>
>>Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.
>>
>>
>>With Metta Dieter
>>
>>P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the
>>delay of postings, no answer so far