Dear Larry,

I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious affairs) as "the
ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their chants in
secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views secretly not
openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).

It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..." which I
think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the sentiment).


The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s. v. mātar),
although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with women" (= methuna or
sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.

Hope this helps,

Metta,

Bryan



________________________________
From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna Sutta")


I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly passage.
It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS I.282-83,
occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the first
paragraph consisting of these six sentences:

Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
Katamāni tīṇi?
Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.

(This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The Word
Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout, e.g.,
as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)

In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this paragraph
(p. 88) as:

"These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What three?
Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."

For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of
"mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and dreaded
(e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven. Bodhi's
inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation of
this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly
problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given that
"mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:

"Women proceed in secret ..."?

Thanks so very much for any help!
Larry






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