Dear Nina,
Thanks for the lengthy explanation which I understand. My concern is that, since the Buddha does not use these terms himself in the suttas, perhaps they are later interpretations. I am thinking of the Kaccaanagottasuttaṃ SN II 17, where the Buddha talks about dualities of existence and non-existence:
Dvayaṃnissito kho'yaṃ kaccaana loko yebhuyyena
atthita~nceva natthita~nca. Lokasamudaya~nca kho kaccaana yathaabhuutaṃ sammappa~n~naaya
passato yaa loke natthitaa, saa na hoti. Lokanirodhaṃ kho kaccaana yathaabhuutaṃ
sammappa~n~naaya passato yāaa loke atthitaa, saa na hoti.
For the most part this world is
dependent on a duality , on the notion of existence
or non-existence. But for the one seeing the arising of the world
as it really is, with complete wisdom, there is no notion of non-existence with
respect to the world ; and for one who sees the
cessation of the world as it really is with complete wisdom, there is no notion
of existence with respect to the world.
He then goes on to say
Sabbamatthii'ti kho kaccaana, ayameko anto. Sabbaṃ
natthii'ti ayaṃ dutiyo anto. Ete te kaccaana ubho ante anupagamma majjhena
tathaagato dhammaṃ deseti. Avijjaapaccayā saṅkhaaraa....
“All exists,” Kacana, is one extreme. “All
doesn’t exist,” is a second extreme. Not having approached these two extremes,
the Tathāgata teaches the dharma of the middle. Depending on ignorance,
volitional formations, ... (the other links in the chain of dependent arising follow).
So I'm wondering if the duality of existence and non-existence which are extremes is comparable to the duality of ultimate and provisional truths, that is my question? Does it really matter (for liberation) if we look at the khandhas as ultimate truths or provisional, as long as we don't identify with them and mistakenly package them into an abstract concept, like individual? In other words, as long as we see them as instantaneous dhamma which rise in an instant and fall in an instant?
Tks for your help,
Bryan
________________________________
From: Nina van Gorkom <
vangorko@...>
To:
Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 28, 2010 9:51:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] Q. Abhidhamma Series, no 5
Dear Bryan,
Op 26-mrt-2010, om 18:29 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:
> So too, bhikkhus, whatever kind of form there is, whether past,
> future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior
> or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and
> carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to be void,
> hollow, insusbstantial. For what substance could there be in form
> (trans. Bodhi, page 950)
>
> The Buddha then goes on to make the same observation on the other
> four naamas, the khandhas, viz., feeling, perception, volitional
> formations and consciousnsess.
>
> I know the Buddha talks about conventional reality in the suttas,
> but I can't think of any place where he calls the khandhas ultimate
> reality - more likely we see something like the above. There seems
> to be a contradiction. Can you explain?
----------
N: The five khandhas are the same dhammas as the three conditioned
paramattha dhammas of citta, cetasika and ruupa. I do not speak now
about nibbaana.
As to meaning, the five khandhas are the same as three paramattha
dhammas, even though they are not called by the term paramattha
dhammas. They are past, future or present, in other words, they arise
and fall away, they are impermanent. They have no substance, no core,
they are void, that is, they are not a self, not a person.
All these texts about the khandhas are actually Abhidhamma in the
suttas. The Buddha refers to ultimate realities, not to concepts.
When we take the khandhas as the whole of a person, we have wrong
view of self. Thus, when we fail to see the different characteristics
of naama and ruupa when they appear one at a time, we take them for a
self or a person.
I quote from the Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 213 and the tiika:
Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 213:
Text Vis.: 'Order of teaching' is appropriate however; for there are
those
people who, while teachable, have fallen into assuming a self among the
five aggregates owing to failure to analyze them.
-------
N: As to the expression, by non-analysis (abhedena), the Tiika states
that this means: by not analysing the khandhas, beginning with ruupa,
by taking them together as a mass (pi.n.da).
As to the expression, assuming a self (attagaaha), the Tiika states
that they have fallen into the flood of wrong view (di.t.thogha) by
the assuming of a self as mentioned.
----------
Text Vis.: and the Blessed One is desirous of releasing them from the
assumption by getting them to see how the [seeming] compactness of
mass [in the five aggregates] is resolved;
---------
N: The Tiika explains that seeing the resolution of the mass or whole
(of the five khandhas) is done by distinguishing (vivecento) ruupa
from aruupa (naama).
--------
N: The teaching of the five khandhas is the teaching of citta,
cetasika and ruupa, dhammas that appear in daily life through the six
doorways.
****
In the preceding section it has been explained that five khandhas
have been taught because all dhammas that resemble each other are
classified as five different khandhas.
In the following section, the second reason for there being five
khandhas is explained. They are the field of the wrong view of self.
*****
Vis. 218.
Intro: in this section the second reason for there being five
khandhas is explained. All the different dhammas included in them can
be the basis of wrong view.
----------
Text Vis.: (b) And this is the extreme limit as the basis for the
assumption of self and what pertains to self, that is to say, the
five beginning with materiality. For this is said: 'Bhikkhus, when
matter exists, it is through clinging to matter, through insisting
upon (interpreting) matter, that such a view as this arises: "This is
mine, this is I, this is my self".
When feeling exists ... When formations exist ... When consciousness
exists, it is through clinging to consciousness, through insisting
upon (interpreting) consciousness, that such a view as this arises:
"This is mine, this is I, this is my self" ' (S.iii,181-82) . So they
are stated as five because this is the widest limit as a basis for
the assumption of the self and what pertains to self.
------
N: Ultimate realities are classified as khandhas, as elements, as
aayatanas, with the purpose of showing that they are not self.
-------
Nina.
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