"Buddhist training begins with siila, and siila very much includes social affairs."

Dear Gunnar,

I wouldn't like to rise a dispute here, still more that this topic is a little outside the main theme of this group, but I think this could be interesting later in connection with the discussion of Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

Why siila is considered as first while factually in the enumeration of the Noble Eightfold Path it goes second?

Of course, everyone has a right to form his own opinion. Mine is that this kind of talk is designed for the seek of common people who are not willing to give up their sentiments. But there is also other interpretations which appeal to me more as more correct if not so popular. Here is two quotations from a sermon given by Bhaddanta Saddhamma Kittisara in Singapore about the tradition of the late Mogok Sayadaw from Myanmar (BTW, this is my favorite Vipassana school):

"Indeed, immortality is Nibbana, deliverance from the cycle of birth and death. Therefore, the Paths (Maggangas) leading to the attainment of immortality (Nibbana) are immortal medicine. With respect to their stage of development, paths are classified into two levels, namely, Mundane Fivefold Path (Lokiya-pancangika-magga) and Supramundane Eightfold Path (Lokuttara-atthangika-magga). The Mundane Fivefold Path is composed of the following paths:

1. Right view (Samma-ditthi)

2. Right thought (Samma-sankappa)

3. Right effort (Samma-vayama)

4. Right Mindfulness (Samma-sati)

5. Right concentration (Samma-samadhi)

Of five Paths, the first two are called Wisdom Path (Panna-magga), and the next three are, Concentration Path (Samadhi-magga). Here, the Wisdom Path plays the leading role."

"In this connection, it should be borne in mind that, the first two Vipassana knowledges, which sees the true nature of the ceaselessly arising and perishing of the khandhas, and which disgusts the nature of them, are still Mundane Path knowledges; only the Magga-nana which culminates in the cessation of the arising and perishing of the khandhas, and sees Nibbana, is Supramundane Path knowledge. However, the latter could not be attained without the development of the former.

With the attainment of the three stages of knowledge, the meditator becomes a Sotapanna, one who initially enters the stream leading to Nibbana - the immortality. At this stage there arises in the Sotapatti Path Consciousness the Supra-mundane Eightfold Path, including Moral Path (Sila-magga) i.e. right speech (Samma-vaca), right action (Samma-kammanta), and right livelihood (Samma-ajiva)."

(I haven't changed the text to the exact transliteration of Pali terms, just cited it as it is given here: http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/aungsan1.htm. I think it's understandable thus as well.)

With metta,
Ardavarz

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo <gunnargallmo@...> wrote:
>
> --- Den sön 2009-11-01 skrev ardavarz <ardavarz@...>:
>
> <Buddhism is not concern with the casts, social contradictions etc. but with the elimination of suffering which is the same for all beings. This is a revolution in the psyche, not in society (society just doesn't matter).>
>
> I disagree.
>
> I think this a very serious over-simplification, that you are presenting Quietism rather than Buddhism.
>
> The Dhamma is concerned _primarily_ with personal liberation, but it is by no means indifferent to social matters. This is clear from the advice given by the Buddha in the suttas, e. g. the beginning of the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta, or the whole of the Sigaalovaadasutta
>
> Buddhist training begins with siila, and siila very much includes social affairs.
>
> Of course, there is always a difference between the ideal and the possible; that's why I think the utopian society described in the Cakkavatti story is meant as a social ideal to be strived for, not as something that has actually existed.
>
> Gunnar
>
>
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