Dear Nina and Lennart,

thank you for the interesting discussion. I think for every Buddhist meditator, there are many non-Buddhist meditators, and non-meditating Buddhists and non-Buddhists who are also interested to learn about the Buddha's teachings. And we should welcome any genuine open discussions.

Please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that with jhana, it is already possible for some to develop some sort of miraculous powers. However, even so, it is still far away from enlightenment. My previous study shows that all schools of Buddhism place great emphasis on samadhi, but each in its own way. However, the emphasis on jhana is less consistent.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

> I really hope I do not offend anyone on this list here, but I am very glad to talk about this with Nina, my favorite Abhidhamma expert!

N: Vitakka and vicaara seem rather close, although there is a difference. Hard to know their different characteristics when they actually occur. But it is necessary to know this precisely if one develops jhaana and will abandon them one at a time in order to reach a higher stage. These different jhaanafactors are mentioned in the suttas, and also the fact that they are abandoned, but the Visuddhimagga gives a more detailed explanation. I just touched on a few points, trying to give a further explanation. But I am well aware that we have different vitakkas because of different ways of thinking, due to different accumulated inclinations and background.