Hi Nina, Ong Yong Peng,
I always enjoyed Petakopadesa's great explanation on this:

Yathā pakkhī pubbaṃ āyūhati pacchā nāyūhati yathā āyūhanā evaṃ vitakko,
yathā pakkhānaṃ pasāraṇaṃ evaṃ vicāro . Like a bird first has to exert
itself and later has not to exert itself. In the same way is the exertion
vitakko and the spreading of wings is vicaro (Petakopadesa, Khuddaka Nikaya,
PTS p. 142)

...which comes quite close to what you experience doing "buddho", "buddho"
or "pathavi, pathavi" until it starts to "fly" without exertion...

see also:
http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/03/23/vitakka-vicara-what-do-they-mean/


metta,

Lennart

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 9:16 PM, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Nina,
>
> thank you.
>
> Ven. Buddhadatta gives the following in the Concise Pali-English
> Dictionary:
> vicaara (m) investigation, management, planning.
> vitakka (m) reflexion, thought.
> savitakka (adj) accompanied by reasoning.
>
> Ven. Nyanatiloka has the following in the Manual of Buddhist Terms and
> Doctrines:
> vicaara: discursive thinking.
> vitakka: thought, thought-conception.
> vitakka-vicaara: thought-conception and discursive thinking, (or applied
> and sustained thought).
>
> PTS PED has the following:
> vicaara (m) investigation, examination, consideration, deliberation.
> vitakka (m) reflection, thought, thinking; "initial application" (vitakka
> is often combd with vicÄ ra or "initial & sustained application" Mrs. Rh.
> D.; Cpd. 282; "reflection & investigation" Rh. D.; to denote the whole of
> the mental process of thinking.)
> savicaara (adj) accompanied by investigation.
> savitakka (adj) accompanied by reasoning.
>
> F.L.Woodward (PTS 1995) has for his translation:
> savicaara (adj) accompanied by sustained thought.
> savitakka (adj) accompanied by directed thought.
>
> The prefix 'sa' is another form of 'sa.m', meaning with, together,
> possessed of, having.
>
> I suppose vitakka-vicaara as "reasoning and investigation" is a more
> literal translation of the compound, and does not exactly describe the
> experience of the meditator. I agree that "applied and sustained thinking",
> or even "focused and maintained awareness" is more adequate. What do you
> think?
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Nina van Gorkom
> wrote:
>
> > savitakka (adj) accompanied by reasoning.
> > savicaara (adj) accompanied by investigation.
>
> Usually the jhaanafactors of vitakka and vicaara are translated as applied
> thinking and sustained thinking. They are factors accompanying the lower
> stages of jhaana. They are still needed, the meditator has to 'think' of the
> meditation subject in order to be absorbed. But later on he can abandon
> these coarse factors, and then jhaana is more refined.
>
> Adding from the commentary: there are different reasons for cultivating
> jhaana, such as becoming concentrated, as basis for developing miraculous
> powers, but here: as basis for vipassanaa. He emerges from jhaana and
> considers all conditioned dhammas, their causes and conditions until he has
> attained arahatship. The commentator speaks about lokiya jhaana and
> lokuttara jhaana.
>
> N: Lokuttara jhaana accompanies lokuttara citta that experiences nibbaana.
>
>
>


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