DC Wijeratna wrote thus at 17:34 22/03/2009:

>>>Really, these are the two fundamental motivations to avoid wrong-doing,
>>>especially so in a time when a Buddha is not living.
>
>>I hear you. I'm just not so sure of that.
>
>The comment above was made on the basis of Devadhamma Jaataka. Jaataka No. 6.
>It is captioned by which could be of interest:
>"hiriottappasampannaa sukkadhammasamaahitaa
>santo sappurisaa loke devadhammaati vuccareti"

Thank you for sharing that. I do believe that hiriottappa are good qualities. I just doubt the common translation of them as shame and fear of wrong doing, which doesn't work in my experience.

kb

>________________________________
>From: Kumara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
>To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:12:00 PM
>Subject: RE: hiri and ottappa (Re: ottappa {Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.1.7 Ka.nha Sutta (1/1)})
>
>D.C. Wijeratna wrote thus at 09:52 AM 16-03-09:
>>There are no exact equivalents in English or in any other language for the
>>range of emotions expressed in the Pali Canon.
>
>I fully agree with you on that. It's a perennial issue in translation, esp. when it comes to mental states.
>
>>Traditionally, ‘hiri’ and
>>‘ottappa’ are interpreted as: shame of wrong-doing; fear of wrong doing.
>
>True.
>
>>Really, these are the two fundamental motivations to avoid wrong-doing,
>>especially so in a time when a Buddha is not living.
>
>I hear you. I'm just not so sure of that.
>
>In practice, I find shame and fear to arise from sakkaayaditthi. Furthermore, they don't work very well in my spiritual development. OTOH, understanding the causes (as far down as I can) has been a far more effective and lasting solution.
>
>So, with such repeated empirical examples of this in my life, I begin to wonder if the orthodox interpretations of hiri and ottappa are correct.
>
>kb