Dear Nina,

thank you. I did some further but very limited research and found hiri is also been translated as modesty.

From this exercise, I realise it may sometimes be difficult to find an exact English equivalent for a Pali term, since the English language evolved and is derived from cultures and traditions very dissimilar from Pali. English vocabulary is largely based on Latin/Greek, French, German, Norse and Celtic, depending how far back we look at it. These languages are used in societies with social structures, religious practices and philosophical ideas very different from ancient India.

My earlier description is confined to the discussion within Cariya Sutta. That description is probably a one-liner summary of the sutta (which is already a short one), and the context within which hiri and ottappa are used. From your explanation, I gather that hiri (and ottappa) can be used in a broader context. I agree we do have to give considerations to a general meaning and hence English translation for both words.

My understanding of both words are now as follows:

hiri: modesty, ethical integrity, sense of shame, ability to distinguish/identify akusala (from kusala)

ottappa: moral prudence, stopping short of akusala, with understanding of its negative effects

In this way, hiri and ottappa work as a pair, able to identify akusala (hiri), and knowing its negative effects, one refrain from it (ottappa). What do you think?

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

> I have a peep on Cariya Sutta, but hope Nina can comment further
> on the word hirii. We are only halfway through Cariya Sutta, but
> it seems to be discussing in particular "ethical integrity or
> responsibility" regarding sexual relationships.

N: I had not thought about it in this way. It is more like shrinking back from the dirt of defilements. Thus, the opposite of the pig who swallows in dirt, eats dirt. And then, there are many degrees of defilements, more gross and more subtle. Understanding can be developed of very subtle lobha we may not have known of before, or conceit we may not have noticed before. Like: 'I want to be a superior person', clinging to our own goodness. We learn to see through motives that seem very noble but which are directed towards gain for ourselves. We learn how often we deceive ourselves, mislead ourselves. It is understanding of the different cittas at the present moment that will teach us a lesson. Thus, hiri will develop. It arises with each and every kusala citta. When giving with generosity the citta is kusala and there is also hiri that shrinks back from avarice and selfish gain. When observing a precept like abstaining from slandering, there is also hiri that shrinks back from giving in to slandering.