Dear Ven Kumara, Ria, Florent and James,

thanks for your interesting discussion. Firstly, I like to mention that we be mindful when making references to science, lest that we are seen to promote some kind of pseudoscience. Buddhists, I believe, should never distort science to suit any particular religious belief.

Secondly, I hope our discussion is not following someone's dream, but proper analysis of the text before us.

I agree with James that we should consider the etymology, and with Florent that we consider other translation and interpretation, and with Nina who usually consult the commentary and also where available the Abhidhamma perspective. We also need to consider when choosing an English term, if that term has been used for another Pali word or meaning. The social implications during Buddha's times and ours. The historical context/settings of this discourse. The philosophical meaning as it fits into the greater scheme of things (of the Dhamma-vinaya). The anthropological evidence and assumptions to our interpretations and translations.

I believe the discussion here is not about sexual attraction, family responsibility, or nudity. That does not mean these topics may not be discussed elsewhere in the suttas, but we should avoid drifting away from the core discussion. I believe we are all learning, but hopefully the more learned members can be more willing to provide assistance.

I have a peep on Cariya Sutta, but hope Nina can comment further on the word hirii. We are only halfway through Cariya Sutta, but it seems to be discussing in particular "ethical integrity or responsibility" regarding sexual relationships. If so, hirii or "sense of shame" applies to a person refraining from a certain sexual relationship which is ethically irresponsible and leads to confusion.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, James Whelan wrote:

Although in the context of Buddhist teaching neither etymology nor Sanskrit equivalents are always a sure guide to meaning, they do often help. It may be worth bearing in mind in the present discussion that the Pali ottappa is congnate with Sanskrit apa-trap. The root trap essentially means 'shame', and the prefix apa essentially means 'away'. Thus, the underlying meaning of Skt apatrapati (> Pali ottapati) is 'to be shamed away', i.e. to recoil from doing something on account of the sense of shame one will feel by doing it. So I have no quarrel with 'moral prudence', but it is useful to view it as the particular kind of prudence associated with a sense of shame at doing wrong.

>> "Sense of shame" for hiri can also carry negative connotations,
>> can we improve the English further?

> This seems tougher. Hiri is usually translated as shame, as in hirikopina (Buddhadatta: that which arouses shyness, i.e. the male or female organ). Unless we ditch this concept. Maybe hiri as shame is a later perception (just as "atman" in the Vedic tradition has underwent drastic change in meaning through the millennia).
>
> Why think of the reproductive organ is shameful? This may apply only in societies where it is covered. Those that don't cover it probably wouldn't relate it to shame at all. I've seen a picture of native men in Papua New Guinea wearing something on the penis, and I do mean just the penis, and tie the "sheath" to the waist, thus lifting it up. For them, it's seems more like an honour.
>
> Ah hah.... honour. How about a sense of honour for hiri? It seems to connect with one of the meanings of honour: a woman's virtue or chastity. It's a departure of tradition, but worth considering I think.
>
> So, hiri: sense of honour; ottappa, moral prudence.