Although in the context of Buddhist teaching neither etymology nor Sanskrit equivalents are always a sure guide to meaning, they do often help. It may be worth bearing in mind in the present discussion that the Pali ottappa is congnate with Sanskrit apa-trap. The root trap essentially means 'shame', and the prefix apa essentially means 'away'. Thus, the underlying meaning of Skt apatrapati (> Pali ottapati) is 'to be shamed away', i.e. to recoil from doing something on account of the sense of shame one will feel by doing it. So I have no quarrel with 'moral prudence', but it is useful to view it as the particular kind of prudence associated with a sense of shame at doing wrong.

James

----- Original Message -----
From: Kumâra Bhikkhu
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: ottappa {Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.1.7 Ka.nha Sutta (1/1)}


Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 08:03 PM 09-03-09:
>Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,
>
>thanks again. Yes, "moral prudence" sounds good to me, the discussion on the meaning of ottappa is very helpful too.

Great.

I cc'd my last posting to a friend, and he wrote back:
thanks for the info. hmmmm, what about translating 'ottappa'
as 'righteousness' .... i forgot what's the chinese word for this ....

For that, WordNet provides the meaning "adhering to moral principles". It could also mean "morally upright, just". What do you think?

I still think "moral prudence" fit better though.

>"Sense of shame" for hiri can also carry negative connotations, can we improve the English further? Thank you.

This seems tougher. Hiri is usually translated as shame, as in hirikopina (Buddhadatta: that which arouses shyness, i.e. the male or female organ). Unless we ditch this concept. Maybe hiri as shame is a later perception (just as "atman" in the Vedic tradition has underwent drastic change in meaning through the millennia).

Why think of the reproductive organ is shameful? This may apply only in societies where it is covered. Those that don't cover it probably wouldn't relate it to shame at all. I've seen a picture of native men in Papua New Guinea wearing something on the penis, and I do mean just the penis, and tie the "sheath" to the waist, thus lifting it up. For them, it's seems more like an honour.

Ah hah.... honour. How about a sense of honour for hiri? It seems to connect with one of the meanings of honour: a woman's virtue or chastity. It's a departure of tradition, but worth considering I think.

So, hiri: sense of honour; ottappa, moral prudence. So,

Hmm... This is somewhat unusual. I seem to be suddenly "endowed" with a heighten ability to think unusually laterally recently. Maybe it has to do with having had dreamy nights in the whole of the past week. Heehee.

kb




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