Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 08:03 PM 09-03-09:

>Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,
>
>thanks again. Yes, "moral prudence" sounds good to me, the discussion on the meaning of ottappa is very helpful too.

Great.

I cc'd my last posting to a friend, and he wrote back:
thanks for the info. hmmmm, what about translating 'ottappa'
as 'righteousness' .... i forgot what's the chinese word for this ....

For that, WordNet provides the meaning "adhering to moral principles". It could also mean "morally upright, just". What do you think?

I still think "moral prudence" fit better though.

>"Sense of shame" for hiri can also carry negative connotations, can we improve the English further? Thank you.

This seems tougher. Hiri is usually translated as shame, as in hirikopina (Buddhadatta: that which arouses shyness, i.e. the male or female organ). Unless we ditch this concept. Maybe hiri as shame is a later perception (just as "atman" in the Vedic tradition has underwent drastic change in meaning through the millennia).

Why think of the reproductive organ is shameful? This may apply only in societies where it is covered. Those that don't cover it probably wouldn't relate it to shame at all. I've seen a picture of native men in Papua New Guinea wearing something on the penis, and I do mean just the penis, and tie the "sheath" to the waist, thus lifting it up. For them, it's seems more like an honour.

Ah hah.... honour. How about a sense of honour for hiri? It seems to connect with one of the meanings of honour: a woman's virtue or chastity. It's a departure of tradition, but worth considering I think.

So, hiri: sense of honour; ottappa, moral prudence. So,

Hmm... This is somewhat unusual. I seem to be suddenly "endowed" with a heighten ability to think unusually laterally recently. Maybe it has to do with having had dreamy nights in the whole of the past week. Heehee.

kb