Dear Bankei,
In the E-sangha on lioncity.net there has been an interesting thread
this year about this topic.
As you can only acces the e-sangha when you are a member of that
sangha, I copy the thread below.
I have drawn a short line to keep the various postings apart.
the foto is under the files of this forum
Kind regards,
Ria
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Does anyone know what the oldest surviving Pali manuscript is, and
where it is located now? (Echalon)
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I was tempted to say they're probably tucked into my partner's sock
drawer somewhere, or lost in the chaotic doom-laden cavern that is my
youngest daughter's room.....
But I think this may be what you're looking for.
http://www.ebmp.org/
Hope it helps. (FeDe)
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No, that project is studying Mahayana documents left by an early
Afghan empire in the Gandhari language. I think the oldest (legible)
Pali palm-leaf texts date from the 13th century AD, but comparative
linguistics places the oldest sections of the Pali canon at around
300BC - AD, and maybe older. (Nac)
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Hi all
I remember RF Gombrich mentioned it in the first chapter of How
Buddhism Began: the conditioned genesis of the early teachings.
If you're patient, I'll dig it out later tonight and report back to you.
Kind regards (Ben Oloughlin)
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Hi Echalon,
"The oldest surviving Buddhist texts in the Pali language come from
the relic chamber of a Buddhist stupa at Sri Ksetra. They consist of a
twenty-leaf manuscript of solid gold and a large gilded reliquary of
silver (Fig. 2). A new and exhaustive palaeographic study of these
inscriptions shows that they date from the mid-fifth to mid-sixth
century AD. Unlike all the other early Buddhist societies of Southeast
Asia, evidence of Mahayanist contacts in Pyu sites is scant. It is
clear that the Pyu kingdoms were in contact with several Indian
kingdoms in the south east as well as in North India, but stood in a
tutelary relationship to none. From the earliest evidence, Pyu
Buddhist writing, art, and architecture show processes of adaptation
at work that laid the foundations for distinctively Burmese traditions
of Buddhism within the greater Buddhist eucumene."
http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/25/theme/25T6.html
Best wishes, (Dmytro)
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been on a similar quest...
per wikipedia:
"The Gandhaaran Buddhist Texts are the oldest Buddhist manuscripts yet
discovered and also the oldest Indian manuscripts yet discovered. They
were sold to European and Japanese institutions and individuals, and
are currently being recovered and studied by several universities.
The Gandaaran texts are in a considerably deteriorated form (their
survival at all is miraculous), but educated guesses about
reconstruction have been possible in several cases using both modern
preservation techniques and more traditional textual scholarship,
comparing previously known Paali and Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit versions
of texts.
check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandharan_Buddhist_Texts
also, there are no "pali" texts, per se. only the pali language witten
in other scripts, i.e. brahmi and kharo.s.thii.
i'm busy trying to find the oldest known written expression of buddha,
dhamma, sangha.
metta, (scotta)
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Thanks for the replies, everyone! I'm interested in the oldest text in
the Pali language, not in the oldest buddhist text, though those
Gandhaaran texts do sound interesting. If anyone could find pictures
of old Pali texts (I'm not picky about scripts) that'd be great.
@ben: thanks, that sounds like just the right source. (Echalon)
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QUOTE(scotta @ Mar 6 2008, 11:28 AM)
there are no "pali" texts, per se. only the pali language witten in
other scripts, i.e. brahmi and kharo.s.thii.
I think if that were true, there would be no "English", "French", or
"Spanish" texts either, just those languages written using the Latin
Alphabet! wink.gif
I've never heard of Pali written using Braahmii or Kharo.s.thii, what
examples do you know of?
QUOTE(scotta @ Mar 6 2008, 11:28 AM)
i'm busy trying to find the oldest known written expression of buddha,
dhamma, sangha.
Do you mean the oldest surviving example of those words written down?
Or do you mean their first usage? If the latter, I guess for finding
"dhamma" you would be looking at Vedic religion. (Echalon)
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heya echalon... oops on the word "texts"! i learned from you (in
another thread) "Well, given that Pali has no associated script, first
you would have to choose a script you would want it written in."
that's what i meant (what he said!)...
here's more from wikipedia on those first known buddist manuscripts
(in case anyone's interested):
"The British Library Collection
In 1994 the British Library acquired a group of some eighty Gandharan
manuscript fragments from the first half of the first century. They
were written on birch bark and stored in clay jars, which preserved
them. They are thought to have been found in eastern Afghanistan
(Bamiyan, Jalalabad, Hadda, which were part of Gandhara), and the clay
jars were buried in ancient monasteries. A team has been at work,
trying to decipher the manuscript: three volumes have appeared. The
manuscripts ware written in Gaandhaarii using the Kharo.s.thii script,
and are therefore sometimes also called the Kharosthi Manuscripts.
The collection is composed of a diversity of texts: a Dhammapada,
discourses of Buddha (for example the Rhinoceros Horn Sutra), Avadanas
and Purvayogas, commentaries and Abhidharma texts.
There is evidence to suggest that these texts may belong to the
Dharmaguptaka school, an offshoot of the Theravadins (Salomon 2000,
p.5). There is an inscription on a jar to that school, and there is
some textual evidence as well. On a semi-related point, the Gandhāran
text of the Rhinoceros Sutra contains what may be a polemic against
the Mahaayaana. (Salomon, 2000, p. 127)"
re brahmi...
"The Sch/oyen collection
The Sch/oyen collection consists of birch bark, palm leaf and vellum
manuscripts. They are thought to have been found in the Bamiyan caves,
where refugees were seeking shelter. Most of these manuscripts were
bought by a Norwegian collector, named Martin Sch/oyen, while smaller
quantities are in possession of Japanese collectors. These manuscripts
date from the second to the eighth century AD.
The Sch/oyen collection includes fragments of canonical Suttas,
Abhidharma, Vinaya and Mahayana texts. Most of these manuscripts are
written in the Brahmi scripts, while a small portion is written in
Gandhari/Karoshthi script
i know wikipedia isn't always the best source, and i'm certainly no
expert. i'm not sure how far these texts are "removed" from the pali
oral tradition. i understand that the pali canon/tipitaka was first
written down during the first fourth buddhist council (first century
bce). i also understand that this council was held in sri lanka. so i
assume these first writings were in a sri lankan text. but i haven't
heard of any of these texts remaining - as opposed to the gandhāran
texts mentioned above, some of which date back to "the first half of
the first century." so were talking about existing scripts that date
to within 100-200 years of the council.
thoughts?
as for "dhamma," i'm really looking for it's oldest known written
expression in the context of the three jewels.
metta, (scotta)
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QUOTE(scotta @ Mar 6 2008, 04:18 PM)
The manuscripts ware written in Gaandhaarii using the Kharo.s.thii script
So, as you can see here, the manuscripts were not in Pali, they were
in another language called Gaandhaarii. Early Buddhism was not all
using Pali, it was in a variety of languages, the language in use
depended on the school. We have early Buddhist schools using various
Prakrits and Sanskrit as well as Pali. The reason we use Pali is
because that was the language used by the ancestors of the Theravada
school.
QUOTE(scotta @ Mar 6 2008, 04:18 PM)
as for "dhamma," i'm really looking for it's oldest known written
expression in the context of the three jewels.
So, again, what language you are looking for, as well as what script,
is going to depend on the school you're looking at. If you're looking
for something in Pali/Theravada, then I'm pretty sure you're going to
be looking at what was written down in Sri Lanka. Earlier than that,
it was an oral tradition. I've never found a good source saying what
script they used to write it down, though. I think that Sinhala script
is too new for that. (Echalon)
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QUOTE(ben oloughlin @ Mar 6 2008, 12:48 AM)
Hi all
I remember RF Gombrich mentioned it in the first chapter of How
Buddhism Began: the conditioned genesis of the early teachings.
If you're patient, I'll dig it out later tonight and report back to
you.Kind regards
Ben, any luck with that Gombrich excerpt? biggrin.gif (Echalon)
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QUOTE(echalon @ Mar 9 2008, 06:00 AM)
any luck with that Gombrich excerpt? biggrin.gif
Gombrich on page 9 writes about the manuscript I have mentioned above:
http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=aIOY5g9npMEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gombrich+Buddhism&hl=en&sig=cvSfxcshl5EyEDm_zaFj1AVC1Yo#PPA9,M1
(Dmytro)
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Awesome, thanks very much! Any idea where these are now? (Echalon)
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Probably at the Sri Ksetra archaeological museum:
http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/820/
http://www.hsdejong.nl/myanmar/pyay/index_pages/thayekhittaya.html
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Ksetra
http://www.visitmyanmar.com/Pages/Other%20Places%20to%20visit.html
(Dmytro)
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For anyone that is interested, here's a black and white photo of a
portion of the aforementioned Golden Pali Text:
The Golden Pali Text, which as far as I can find out is the oldest
surviving Pali manuscript, consists of 20 solid gold "leaves"
containing 60 lines of Pali, which make up 8 excerpts from the Canon.
It dates from the 5th-6th century, and is a golden replica of a
palm-leaf manuscript. If you're interested in learning more about the
circumstances of its creation, check out Tracing Thought through
Things by Janice Stargardt. If you want to know what it says (the
transcription, that is), check out "Die Goldblätter aus `Srii K.setra" by
H. Falk in Issue 41 (1997) of Wiener Zeitschrift Für Die Kunde
Südasiens. Enjoy! (echalon)
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(I uploaded the foto to the forum-files Ria-)
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Dear echalon, thanks a lot for sharing. Did you find the picture
online or in one of the above mentioned books?
With best wishes
(ShinMeiDokuJoh)
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That photo was from Janice Stargardt's Tracing Thought through Things
(Echalon)
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Thank you, echalon
That's the first time I see this, I even didn't know these golden
leaves existed.
With best wishes
ShinMeiDokuJoh
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I want to express my gratitude to those who contributed to this
thread. I had been looking around for a long time for the answer to
this very important question. (mcarl40)