From: John Kelly
Message: 13219
Date: 2009-01-20
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <palismith@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Piya,
>
> thanks for your message.
>
> > My point is that not every can help you the way you want them to. I
> > may help to answer certain questions posted when I think I can give
> > a good answer and when I have the time to.
>
> I think that's just as good. After reading your entire post, I do
> realise how busy your schedule is. This is actually the first time I
> know about your translation goals.
>
> > However, I hope you are aware that long before you even started
> > Buddhism or Pali, I have had an interest in Pali Suttas. My
> > approach is Sutta and Dharma first, Pali is just a tool, but I am
> > almost always last-worded by you about such things as "the Kalama
> > Sutta and open mindedness" and the like (but if you care to examine
> > the Sutta as whole, it actually says something qute different). You
> > are welcome to read it at the http://dharmafarer.google.pages if
> > you care to, or any other link you are better disposed to.
>
> As a person from an engineering background, I tend to emphasise on
> mastering the tool, even though it is a mean to an end. I think
> personalities differ, which is why some people produced great
> commentaries and others great Pali grammars.
>
> I like to thank you for your link which I believe should be
> http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/ It is good to read the Kalama
> Sutta again. And yes, when I mention the Buddhist spirit of free
> enquiry, I was referring to Kalama Sutta, but not exactly as what you
> think I meant.
>
> > Not once did you even say something wholesome about the Sutta
> > Discovery translation project or the link, that has been going on
> > for the last 8 years in SIngapore. On the contrary, you seem to
> > object even at the mention of this local project like it would be
> > detrimental to your website. But I keep an open mind about it
> > and still lurk at this website.
>
> Frankly, I do not monitor what is going on on your website. I applaud
> your efforts, and would recommend people to visit the site. The files
> you sent to the group are still on the link:
> http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/ And the messages you send us
> contain the links to your sites.
>
> Certain parts of tipitaka.net are outdated, and I just do not have the
> time to update them. Most of these pages, I have planned to renew them
> with an automated process, but it will be a while before that can
happen.
>
> > I remember once years back telling about the Sutta Discovery
> > project; now I realize why you were cool then. You had "bigger"
> > plans, which is fine. Do what you are best at, and that is what I
> > am doing too. It might take another generation before more
> > qualified and enthusiastic like ourselves really work
> > together for a greater common good, like a Pali university or
> > Dharma colleged in this region. And people will be more civil than
> > Teng Kee and myself (I think we are both old coots, so allow our
> > cantankerous eccentricities--for goodness sake, we are humans, not
> > just talking pixels!)
>
> I have to clarify that I never consider myself a Pali expert of any
> kind. I think learning Pali is a very personal interest of mine, but I
> am happy to share what I know through this list, and also compile the
> collective knowledge in a way useful to others.
>
> Your work on Sutta Discovery is way beyond my means, in terms of time
> and resources, and also topical knowledge. The sutta translation
> exercises we do, though ambitious, are really in bits and pieces. Even
> the Pali exercises, I always ask for review and comments, and have to
> seek Florent and others' help to share the load.
>
> > The point is I too badly need people to help in the Sutta Discovery
> > translation project, which is now in its 27th volume (4 vols a year
> > consistently ). (Anyway I must thank those who have given me an
> > occasional feedback to my SD sutta translation.) This is important
> > when I use these texts teaching them most of the days of the week.
> > This is my life's work. I am 60, and if the SIngapore lifespan
> > works for me, yathaa,kamma.m yathaa,baala.m I will have about 25
> > years more. If mental lucidity continues, I can complete up 100
> > volumes of Suttas and essays by 2030, if I live to that time.
>
> Piya, I never hear that from you before. I wish more resources are
> available at your disposal. Your SD translations may one day be a
> reference for our exercises.
>
> > Another thing: you seem to be offended every time I make an
> > "inspired" statement. This is saddening. While a website can be
> > dedicated, I don't agree that it should be to restricted in
> > expression. Sometimes practitioners may have something beautiful
> > to share, is it wrong to share it with people here? I can't speak
> > for other websites at this point, only this one.
>
> I do not think there should be any problem, as long as it is within
> comprehension of an average person. The message archive for this group
> still contain traces of evidence when peaceful discussions disrupted
> into unnecessary flame-throwing. I do not yet fully comprehend why
> that would happen, but as the moderator I have to keep the group from
> derailing to unknown territory.
>
> > So you almost always correct me here, for example, when I say "We
> > should remember the true purpose of learning Pali". Is there
> > anything wrong in saying this? You even sound vindictive at
> > times.This is a cause for some concern.
>
> Not at all. We are all Kalamas, are we not?
>
> > For me, having an "inspiring" engagement with Pali and the Dharma
> > is a vital part of being a practitioner. Otherwise, we should ask
> > if we are using the internet and our expertise as an escape from
> > the real world or some unresolved personal issues (which is not bad
> > in themselves, but we need to be really open minded).
>
> Appropriate mix of "engagement" is good, otherwise I would like to
> return to my personal issues and pursue other matters of interest. I
> do spend a good amount of time on the internet, not only to learn and
> share Pali, but also for connecting with family and friends in
> Singapore, to acquire professional knowledge and update myself on
> events of the world, and for entertainment too. However, if there is
> someone who require my personal devotion, I will nonetheless do it.
>
> > Please keep this website colour blind or fully coloured without
> > any favour or preference.
>
> I will do my best, your suggestions are always welcome, but keep it
> short and sweet the next time. ;-)
>
> > I'm sorry to be rather blunt in this mail, but I'm not sure how
> > else this can be communicated to you. When we used to meet in
> > Singapore you were quietly friendly, but you seem different online.
> > I think something is really wrong here.
>
> Those who know me long enough and in person would know that I have
> interests in a wide range of things, not only Pali. And, I am always
> happy to discuss all sorts of things and issues, but it is very
> different in a group's situation when some topics can be more
> sensitive than others. I cannot afford too much time to play judge
> judy to resolve conflicts which can be avoided. Maybe this is not true
> of all forums, and I believe we can improve further, but I am trying
> to maintain some quality of the list.
>
> > I say things because I hope it will make people think, and not to
> > judge anyone merely by appearances, reputation and website, or even
> > Sutta translation. It would be worrying if anyone hated me for just
> > writing this: ask yourself why you have hate in you.
>
> I don't see why people should hate talking pixels. ;-)
>
> Each time I read the Kalama Sutta, each time I realise the nobleness
> and timelessness of the Buddha's teachings. I believe we are all
> Kalamas. In fact, we are Kalamas over and over again. We agree with
> the Buddha's ten doubtworthy points and the rest of the discourse.
> Like the Kalamas, we praise the Dharma, and go for refuge. However, we
> keep falling into the ten doubtworthy traps. Falling short of the
> Buddha's expectations, but we continue to judge people, looking at
> others' faults and measure them in our own standards. Greed, hatred,
> delusion, jealousy, prejudice, pride, etc. These negative qualities
> are unwholesome, yet we still live by them. We accept, promote and
> cheer on teachings of greed, hatred, delusion, and intolerance. We may
> even pretend they are not there in us.
>
> "Doubt has arisen in you over what is doubtful." I believe the Kalama
> Sutta is rightly known as the charter of free enquiry, not vaguely to
> choose only parts of the Buddha's teachings to my likings, but rather
> to allow myself careful analysis and investigation on later
> interpretations which may have fallen into any of the ten traps,
> knowingly or otherwise, and for any reason.
>
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>