Dear Piya,

Thanks for your general comments ~ yes, I am aware of the flexibility /
ingenuity of the translators into Chinese. But the text I am looking at is
a Mahayana sutra which quotes a good number of verses which are *all*
authentic ~ I have traced them either to the Udaana-varga (Skt) [=
Dhammapada] or to one or other of the Khuddaka compilations, with just two
or three exceptions. Contextually, I am convinced that this verse must have
been found in one of the early canonical sources ~ but as I mentioned, this
Mahayana sutra is clearly Mahasanghika affiliated and not enough of their
specific material has survived. But thanks for your thoughts ~ it was a
long shot anyway !

best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

----- Original Message -----
From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse


sDear Stephen,

The verse is according to the context you gave. I suspect there were times
when certain translator (unlike Xuanzang) who would probably interpolated
their own verses (perhaps from some other texts) that they thought reflected
the Chinese mind better.

John Brough has shown how sometimes when the translators are faced with a
very difficult passage, they would simply interpolate wholesale a passage
from a familiar work with similar inital words!

At the moment I'm not sure where the Chinese translators got their verse.
Have you checked with Bucknell's Pali-Chinese Sutra Correspondence to locate
the cogant suttas?

With best wishes,

Piya Tan


On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Stephen Hodge <
s.hodge@...> wrote:

> Dear Piya,
>
> Thank you for your suggestions. But, alas, they do not fit. The emphasis
> should be on Buddhas etc dying. However, this verse may possibly not be
> preserved in the Pali tradition ~ its immediate source would have been
> Mahasanghika. If it's any help, here is the Chinese text:
>
> 諸佛與緣覺 及以弟子眾
> 猶捨無常身 何況諸凡夫
>
> Best wishes,
> Stephen Hodge
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@... <dharmafarer%40gmail.com>>
> To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Pali] Pasenadi verse
>
> Stephen,
>
> This is what you are looking for (from the Ayyikaa Sutta):
>
> Sabbe sattā marissanti,
> maraṇantañhi jīvitaṃ;
> Yathākammaṃ gamissanti,
> puññapāpaphalūpagā;
> Nirayaṃ pāpakammantā,
> puññakammā ca suggatiṃ.
>
> Tasmā kareyya kalyāṇaṃ,
> nicayaṃ samparāyikaṃ;
> Puññāni paralokasmiṃ,
> patiṭṭhā honti pāṇinan 'ti.
>
> (S 431-431/3.22/1:97)
>
> If the Pali does not work, let me know.
>
> Piya Tan
>
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Hodge <
> s.hodge@... <s.hodge%40padmacholing.plus.com>> wrote:
>
> > Dear Palistas,
> >
> > I wonder if any well-read person can solve this problem for me. Within
> > certain sutra I a reading in Chinese, the interlocutor asks the Buddha
> > about
> > the true meaning of a verse he is said to have uttered to console the
> > heart-broken King Pasenadi upon the death of his mother (but probably,
> > grandmother). The verse roughly translates as follows:
> >
> > "If even Buddhas, Pratyekabuddhas and shravakas cast off their
> impermanent
> > bodies, then how much more so in the case of ordinary people
> (puthajjanas)
> > !"
> >
> > Does anybody recognize an approximate Pali equivalent for this verse ?
> > Bear
> >
> > in mind that it may not, in fact, actually occur in connection with
> > Pasenadi
> > in the Pali canon. Unfortunately, there is nothing here that one could
> > readily use as a keyword to do a quick canonical search.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Stephen Hodge
> >
> >
> >
>
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The Minding Centre
Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
Singapore 650644
Tel: 8211 0879
Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


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