Dear Nina,

If we take the Buddhist TEXTS as a collection as it is today (like the
Bible), it
is easy to follow and accept what you have presented. For a few centuries at

least the early Buddhist "texts" were a floating tradition. Most
importantly, these
texts were the work of various redactors (sangitikara) and reciters
(bhanakara)
who were retelling, contextualizing and presenting teachings and events.

I have often wondered if the Buddha, for example, ever spoke in such
repetitive manner
as presented in many of the Suttas. These conventions (like computer
programmes)
were introduced later for the purpose of transmitting the teachings as the
reciters,
etc, held them.

In other words, the Pali texts are not the ipsissima verba of the Buddha.
Indeed, one
of the first things I was corrected as a monk in Thailand was that the
Buddha did
not speak Pali.

I accept these are the best texts we have in most cases, but no WORD is
final in
Buddhist training (as stated in the parable of the raft in the Alaggadupama
Sutta etc).
With meditation, and some level of meditative insight, we are
word-worshippers at best.

Coming now to the problem at hand. Frankly, if we are simply book-based or
text-
based, I suppose we should interpret "sutta" and "geyya" in the Maha Sunnata
Sutta
context as actual texts (part of the 9 angas),

Why are only "Sutta" and "Geyya" mentioned, and not the rest of the nine (or
twelve,
according to Mahayana) "teachings" listed. It is very likely that this Sutta
belongs to
an early stratum.

The next question is: What is the Sutta (the Buddha) trying to say here? We
must be
careful not to present Buddhism as if it is in a cultural vacuum. Often the
Buddha
would be using well known current Indian religious terms, and adapting them
to his
teachings.

Having said that, I think we can interpret the interesting passage (M 3:15)
in two ways:

(1) Not to follow the teacher purely for academic learning ("sutras and
geyas"), or
simply as textual knowledge (which may in a way reflect Pali Yahoo Group
sometimes);

(2) Not to merely learn the Suttas and Geyyas (restricted interpretation).

(3) Probably (1) + (2).

Anyway, I hope I am not politically incorrect, is reminding ourselves not to
take the
Pali texts as the Bible. There must be a balance between the spirit and the
letter, but
the spirit (attha) must prevail.

Anyway, thanks for the lengthy references which I will continue to reflect
onm, along
with the insights of the meditation teachers, too, (and my own meditation).

I am reminded of a beautiful story: it is said that once a famous Thai woman
Abhidhamma
teacher (Ajahn Sujin?) went to see Ajahn Chah, and asked him what sort of
Abhidhamma
he teaches. Ajahn Chah simply put his palm on his chest, smiling, without
uttering a word.

Let's always remember the heart of the matter.

With metta,

Piya Tan

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> Dear Piya and Thomas,
> Op 2-okt-2008, om 5:16 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
>
> > This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I
> > think
> > sutta and geyyaa
> > here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the
> > formalized
> > collections of
> > sutta, geyyaa, etc (which is late). As such, I take these terms
> > historically
> > as simply
> > referring to the mostly non-Buddhist sutras (formulas) and geyas
> > (hymns) of
> > the day.
> -----------
> N: On the dsg list Sarah Abbot, gave Thomas some extracts of texts
> which may be of interest to others as well. The first is from Jim.
> 1) Jim A:
> >According to a quick search on the CSCD an enumeration of the nine
> (or in part) are presented 42 times in the Suttantapi.taka, 9 times
> in the Abhidhammapi.taka, and twice in the Vinayapi.taka.
>
> 1. In the Majjhimanikaaya: 4 times in the Alagguupamasutta, MN 22 (M I
> 133-4), once in the Mahaasu~n~natasutta, MN 122 (M III 115), note that
> in this sutta only the first three are given.
> 2. In the Anguttarnikaaya: 20 times in the Book of Fours, 6 times in
> the Book of Fives, twice in the Book of Sixes, and three times in the
> Book of Sevens.
> 3. In the Khuddakanikaaya: five times in the two Niddesas.
> 4. Once in the Vibhanga.
> 5. 8 times in the Puggalapa~n~natti.<
> *****
> Sarah: >...Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse (PTS transl.), N:
> this is the Co to the first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasanganii.
>
> "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na,
> Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla.
>
> "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and
> Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta,
> Tuva.takasutta of
> the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the
> name
> of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta.
>
> "All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In
> particular,
> all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya.
>
> "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other
> words
> of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
> Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.
>
> "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the
> Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as
> Gaathaa.
>
> "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy
> should be understood as Udaana.
>
> "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said
> by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka....
>
> "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka
> constitute
> the Jaataka.
>
> "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken
> in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things
> in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta.
>
> "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated
> attainment
> of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla,
> Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the
> nine
> parts."<
> *****
>
> 3) Sarah:
> >'Heard with the Ear' (AN, 4s, 191, PTS)
>
> " 'Monks, four advantages are to be looked for from the frequent verbal
> practice of teachings heard with the ear (sotaanugataana"m), from
> considering them in the mind, from thoroughly penetrating them by view.
> What are the four?
>
> Herein a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na and
> the
> rest (Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla)*.
> Those teachings heard with the ear, often practiced verbally, considered
> by the mind, are thoroughly penetrated by view.'"
> .....
> [S: digression from 4s, 186 'Approach' (Ummagga)
>
> On the meaning of 'mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
> heart:
>
> "...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
> Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
> understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
> stanza
> of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
> well be called 'one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.'"<
> ****
> 4) Jon:
> >Vism.EngPali.XIV, 24
>
> (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs,
> [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels,
> and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of
> law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the
> meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was
> said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ...
>
> idha bhikkhu dhamma.m jaanaati sutta.m geyya.m...pe0... vedalla.m.
> aya.m vuccati dhammapa.tisambhidaa.
> so tassa tasseva bhaasitassa attha.m jaanaati
> `aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho, aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho'ti.
> aya.m vuccati atthapa.tisambhidaa.<
> *****
> 5) Sarah:
> >...the 'Alagadduupama Sutta'. The simile of the snake starts with
> these lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi translation).
>
> "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses,
> stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories,
> marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma,
> they do
> not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom."
>
> So what is included here within the Dhamma are (from the Pali):
> "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka,
> abbhutadhamma, and vedalla."
>
> All the Pitakas are included in the 9 angas
> as clarified in the point above.<
> *****
> (end of quotes).
>
> Nina.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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