Dear Ong Yong Peng,

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ka/kacchapa_jat_178_215_273.htm
--
Here I find the summary of J.273 with this concluding note and reference:
"The story was related in reference to the quarrelsome ministers of the king
of Kosala. J.ii.359-61."
Perhaps that holds the key to the kassapa-konda~nna reference in J.273.

with metta,
PG
________________________________________________________

On 3/29/08, Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Jo, PG, Nina and friends,
>
> Jo: you are welcome, and thanks for your reply about the Latin
> translations list. Even though there isn't one yet, it is not a
> dauntingly impossible task to sit in a library (over a few days?) to
> go through PTS books and pick out the Latin-only translations. But, of
> course, there isn't much interest in that for now.
>
> The summary *is* from Ven. Malalasekera's DPPN, which you mentioned.
> It used to be my first point of reference to know about a sutta, or a
> name in the suttas. Now, my printed copy is sitting in Singapore while
> I am in Australia. But, I still use the online version every now and then.
>
> It is indeed very nice to learn that you are involved in translating
> the Tipitaka into Bahasa Indonesia. I know of a website containing
> Pali suttas in Indonesian: http://www.samaggi-phala.or.id/ . I am also
> aware of one other group in Indonesia translating the Chinese
> Tripitaka. I suggest that rather than translating from PTS English to
> Bahasa, it is better to translate directly from Pali to Bahasa,
> eliminating any possible errors in PTS versions.
>
> Over the last two millennia, Indonesians had been receiving foreign
> religions, first Buddhism, then Hinduism, and Islam. I am wondering if
> there is any remaining records of Buddhist scriptures, even though
> they may mostly be Mahayana. Do you have any idea?
>
> Btw, the stone reliefs of Borobudur in Central Java, Indonesia,
> depicts the story of the Buddha, and also Jataka tales (from Mahayana
> sources). I would love to visit the place one day, and look forward to
> rendering it digitally using computer graphics.
>
> Now, back to Jataka verse 273. Frankly, I was thinking differently at
> first, which explained my selection of "then", "now" and the article
> "a" in the first verse. But, I now agree with the explanation you, PG
> and Nina gave. Hence, allow me to "recompose" the first verse as follows.
>
> Now, who is the brahmin, like a displaced* meal, like a hand full (of
> gifts);
> Where then did (he) go for alms, which devotee did (he) approach?
>
> My translation style is always as literal as possible while retaining
> the original meaning of the Pali. I am not comfortable with "free
> translation" which requires more advanced linguistic skills, something
> I am currently lacked of.
>
> * In my first attempt, I have "served meal". It is from
> "va.d.dhitabhatta" in the commentary. Now that I understand the
> "story" better, I have "displaced meal", or "uddhitabhatta" in the
> original Pali.
>
> Another translation principle of mine is to minimise incorporating the
> commentary, unless necessary. In this verse, ... a hand full (of
> gifts)..., "(of gifts)" comes from the commentary. In the second
> verse, I have used anaamaasaani = an-aamasitabba-.t.thaanaani, also
> with reference to the commentary.
>
> It is also important to note like all poetry (in any language), Jataka
> verses have to follow strict metric requirements. Hence, the text can
> be very concise at times, and we have to read the commentary to get
> the full story. The same can be said of the Dhammapada verses,
> although the Dhammapada stories can often be found in the four Nikayas.
>
> Lastly, I have a question for everyone. In the third verse, we have:
>
> The Kassapas are tortoises, the Kondannas monkeys;
> "O Kassapa, let Kondanna go! An indecent act was done by you."
>
> I understand that in India, Sri Lanka and adjacent regions, such as
> Kashmir, Nepal, Myanmar and Bangladesh, there is this common belief
> that different people (as in a family or clan) are descended from
> different animals.
>
> I wonder if this is from pre-Buddhist animist India or post-Buddha
> times when the Vedic caste system partially collapsed. Similar beliefs
> can still be found among African tribes. While I remain to be
> corrected, such beliefs are also found in ancient cultures, like Egypt
> and Greece, and even Japan and China (to a lesser extent).
>
> My question is in this verse, we have "The Kassapas are tortoises, the
> Kondannas monkeys;", are we exactly referring to the cultural belief I
> have just mentioned? If we consider that the Jataka was compiled at
> the First Council, can we say that such thinking was already part of
> the popular culture during the Buddha's times? Thank you.
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, johan wijaya wrote:
>
> Thanks for the summary, they are quite similar to the notes written in
> Dictionary of Pali Proper Name, by Malalasekera....and also thank you
> very much for the verse translations.
>
> I don't have the list of passages PTS translates into Latin. However,
> we would compile the Latin translation done by PTS as we are trying to
> translate the PTS translation. But so far, it's the second time I read
> Latin translation (one is the story of Elephant and a Beetle, which is
> only one verse) and I am making note of them....my friends here are
> not reporting that they have ever found Latin translation. If anyone
> here ever met such translation, please share it with us.
>
> O yeah, Could anyone share their ideas of what the first verse
> actually means, as I don't really get the point.
>
> Translation from the Latin (given by Piya):
> Which brahmin comes for food, or monk seeks alms,
> With hand outstretched and proferref bowl?
>
> Translation from the Pali (given by Yong Peng):
> Who then is a brahmin like a served meal, like a hand full (of gifts);
> Where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach?
>
> *a brahmin like a served meal = a brahmin who does like a served meal;
> or a brahmin who is like a served meal?? what does 'served meal' refer
> to here?
> * a hand full (of) gifts = because the monkey was holding the tortoise
> as it wouldn't open its mouth and let the monkey go. Am I right?
> *where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach =
> because Bodhisatta regarded the monkey as a brahmin who were actually
> going on an almsround, and wanted to tell him ( in making fun of him)
> that he was wrong to come to him (and his hermitage). So it's like a
> ironic verse, isn't it?
>
>
>


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