Dear PG,
The QuickLatin translation tool is not bad, not too good as well, as it translates word by word with inconsiderable sentence structure, and it is trial (30 days)...However, if we only need to find out the meaning of a word from Latin-English, then this tool is one of the answers. I did try it, with a few sentences and yeah, as I said before, it only translated the meaning word by word. We really need another reference, either the source of language or the dictionary, if we choose to use this tool as one aid of translation tool...

I do understand the visual happening, but what i didn't understand was the words used in the verses, such as "like displaced meal (previously 'served meal')" "like hand full (of) gifts" "where did one (he) go for alms, which devotee did one (he) approach".
After reading your visual explanation and Yong Peng's next reply, I am quite clear as to use what word(s) in translating the verses into Indonesian. Just one thing left, the phrase "like displaced meal (served meal)" refers to the monkey (the brahmin) or to the tortoise? The monkey is like the displaced meal or the monkey likes displaced meal? I'm quite confused with the word 'like' in this verse.
Sorry for my English.

Saudari Nina yang baik (Dear Nina),
Kabar saya baik di sini (I am doing ok here).
There are around tens of us here doing the translation. www.indonesiatipitaka.net is the website, but it's not been updated since 2006, I guess.

The Bogor group (Selamat Rodjali), oh I remember now, you ever gave me their email to me (when I asked about Pali-Indonesia, especially for names of Flora & Fauna found in the Tipitaka)...Too bad that I forgot about them.

Thanks for the comment about the "irony".
Have a nice flight to Thailand. Semoga selamat sampai tujuan.


Dear Yong Peng and Friends all,
Your suggestion, that I had better translate from Pali into Bahasa than translate from English (PTS) into Bahasa, is indeed the same as one suggestion that ever came to our ears by several bhikkhus which are the members of the website that you know, containing Pali Suttas in Indonesian. In that case, we have to learn a lot about Pali and spend more time studying Pali before being able to do so. Again, time is the barrier.

In our country here, Indonesia, the Buddhist scriptures are rarely to be found. Some important Suttas taken from Diighanikaaya, Majjhimanikaaya, Sa.myuttanikaaya, A.nguttaranikaaya, and Khuddakanikaaya (Dhammapada, Petavatthu, Vimaanavatthu, and some others) have been translated into Bahasa and can be found in Buddhist librabries, not in Regional or even National Libraries. But if you want to find English, or even Pali translation, here, it's quite impossible to do so....
As for Mahayana scriptures, they are a bit easier to be found, because there are more Mahayana temples here than Theravada, especially when it comes to Vegetarian matter, most lay people would go for Mahayana. The devotee of Mahayana mostly are the Chinese (in Indonesia) and they would spend any to go to the East Asian countries to get anything related to the Buddha (scriptures). In this way, they actually get two beneficial things, first they can visit the "source" of the real Buddha that they believe in, and meet the locals who are Chinese as well; second they can reunite with the persons/places thought to be their origins. Due to this, more Mahayana Buddhist scriptures are easier to be found here (in Mandarin language).

Truly speaking, I myself haven't been to the Borobudur Temple...and I would love to visit that place too, one day....Maybe we should go there together, ^_^

Sorry for the question that you asked, about the reference to the cultural belief, as it was also one of the questions that I wanted to ask yesterday, but it was forgotten...so I guess I'll just be waiting for others, again.



With Metta,
Jo.




Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Jo, PG, Nina and friends,

Jo: you are welcome, and thanks for your reply about the Latin
translations list. Even though there isn't one yet, it is not a
dauntingly impossible task to sit in a library (over a few days?) to
go through PTS books and pick out the Latin-only translations. But, of
course, there isn't much interest in that for now.

The summary *is* from Ven. Malalasekera's DPPN, which you mentioned.
It used to be my first point of reference to know about a sutta, or a
name in the suttas. Now, my printed copy is sitting in Singapore while
I am in Australia. But, I still use the online version every now and then.

It is indeed very nice to learn that you are involved in translating
the Tipitaka into Bahasa Indonesia. I know of a website containing
Pali suttas in Indonesian: http://www.samaggi-phala.or.id/ . I am also
aware of one other group in Indonesia translating the Chinese
Tripitaka. I suggest that rather than translating from PTS English to
Bahasa, it is better to translate directly from Pali to Bahasa,
eliminating any possible errors in PTS versions.

Over the last two millennia, Indonesians had been receiving foreign
religions, first Buddhism, then Hinduism, and Islam. I am wondering if
there is any remaining records of Buddhist scriptures, even though
they may mostly be Mahayana. Do you have any idea?

Btw, the stone reliefs of Borobudur in Central Java, Indonesia,
depicts the story of the Buddha, and also Jataka tales (from Mahayana
sources). I would love to visit the place one day, and look forward to
rendering it digitally using computer graphics.

Now, back to Jataka verse 273. Frankly, I was thinking differently at
first, which explained my selection of "then", "now" and the article
"a" in the first verse. But, I now agree with the explanation you, PG
and Nina gave. Hence, allow me to "recompose" the first verse as follows.

Now, who is the brahmin, like a displaced* meal, like a hand full (of
gifts);
Where then did (he) go for alms, which devotee did (he) approach?

My translation style is always as literal as possible while retaining
the original meaning of the Pali. I am not comfortable with "free
translation" which requires more advanced linguistic skills, something
I am currently lacked of.

* In my first attempt, I have "served meal". It is from
"va.d.dhitabhatta" in the commentary. Now that I understand the
"story" better, I have "displaced meal", or "uddhitabhatta" in the
original Pali.

Another translation principle of mine is to minimise incorporating the
commentary, unless necessary. In this verse, ... a hand full (of
gifts)..., "(of gifts)" comes from the commentary. In the second
verse, I have used anaamaasaani = an-aamasitabba-.t.thaanaani, also
with reference to the commentary.

It is also important to note like all poetry (in any language), Jataka
verses have to follow strict metric requirements. Hence, the text can
be very concise at times, and we have to read the commentary to get
the full story. The same can be said of the Dhammapada verses,
although the Dhammapada stories can often be found in the four Nikayas.

Lastly, I have a question for everyone. In the third verse, we have:

The Kassapas are tortoises, the Kondannas monkeys;
"O Kassapa, let Kondanna go! An indecent act was done by you."

I understand that in India, Sri Lanka and adjacent regions, such as
Kashmir, Nepal, Myanmar and Bangladesh, there is this common belief
that different people (as in a family or clan) are descended from
different animals.

I wonder if this is from pre-Buddhist animist India or post-Buddha
times when the Vedic caste system partially collapsed. Similar beliefs
can still be found among African tribes. While I remain to be
corrected, such beliefs are also found in ancient cultures, like Egypt
and Greece, and even Japan and China (to a lesser extent).

My question is in this verse, we have "The Kassapas are tortoises, the
Kondannas monkeys;", are we exactly referring to the cultural belief I
have just mentioned? If we consider that the Jataka was compiled at
the First Council, can we say that such thinking was already part of
the popular culture during the Buddha's times? Thank you.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johan wijaya wrote:

Thanks for the summary, they are quite similar to the notes written in
Dictionary of Pali Proper Name, by Malalasekera....and also thank you
very much for the verse translations.

I don't have the list of passages PTS translates into Latin. However,
we would compile the Latin translation done by PTS as we are trying to
translate the PTS translation. But so far, it's the second time I read
Latin translation (one is the story of Elephant and a Beetle, which is
only one verse) and I am making note of them....my friends here are
not reporting that they have ever found Latin translation. If anyone
here ever met such translation, please share it with us.

O yeah, Could anyone share their ideas of what the first verse
actually means, as I don't really get the point.

Translation from the Latin (given by Piya):
Which brahmin comes for food, or monk seeks alms,
With hand outstretched and proferref bowl?

Translation from the Pali (given by Yong Peng):
Who then is a brahmin like a served meal, like a hand full (of gifts);
Where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach?

*a brahmin like a served meal = a brahmin who does like a served meal;
or a brahmin who is like a served meal?? what does 'served meal' refer
to here?
* a hand full (of) gifts = because the monkey was holding the tortoise
as it wouldn't open its mouth and let the monkey go. Am I right?
*where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach =
because Bodhisatta regarded the monkey as a brahmin who were actually
going on an almsround, and wanted to tell him ( in making fun of him)
that he was wrong to come to him (and his hermitage). So it's like a
ironic verse, isn't it?






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