Dear Jo, PG, Nina and friends,

Jo: you are welcome, and thanks for your reply about the Latin
translations list. Even though there isn't one yet, it is not a
dauntingly impossible task to sit in a library (over a few days?) to
go through PTS books and pick out the Latin-only translations. But, of
course, there isn't much interest in that for now.

The summary *is* from Ven. Malalasekera's DPPN, which you mentioned.
It used to be my first point of reference to know about a sutta, or a
name in the suttas. Now, my printed copy is sitting in Singapore while
I am in Australia. But, I still use the online version every now and then.

It is indeed very nice to learn that you are involved in translating
the Tipitaka into Bahasa Indonesia. I know of a website containing
Pali suttas in Indonesian: http://www.samaggi-phala.or.id/ . I am also
aware of one other group in Indonesia translating the Chinese
Tripitaka. I suggest that rather than translating from PTS English to
Bahasa, it is better to translate directly from Pali to Bahasa,
eliminating any possible errors in PTS versions.

Over the last two millennia, Indonesians had been receiving foreign
religions, first Buddhism, then Hinduism, and Islam. I am wondering if
there is any remaining records of Buddhist scriptures, even though
they may mostly be Mahayana. Do you have any idea?

Btw, the stone reliefs of Borobudur in Central Java, Indonesia,
depicts the story of the Buddha, and also Jataka tales (from Mahayana
sources). I would love to visit the place one day, and look forward to
rendering it digitally using computer graphics.

Now, back to Jataka verse 273. Frankly, I was thinking differently at
first, which explained my selection of "then", "now" and the article
"a" in the first verse. But, I now agree with the explanation you, PG
and Nina gave. Hence, allow me to "recompose" the first verse as follows.

Now, who is the brahmin, like a displaced* meal, like a hand full (of
gifts);
Where then did (he) go for alms, which devotee did (he) approach?

My translation style is always as literal as possible while retaining
the original meaning of the Pali. I am not comfortable with "free
translation" which requires more advanced linguistic skills, something
I am currently lacked of.

* In my first attempt, I have "served meal". It is from
"va.d.dhitabhatta" in the commentary. Now that I understand the
"story" better, I have "displaced meal", or "uddhitabhatta" in the
original Pali.

Another translation principle of mine is to minimise incorporating the
commentary, unless necessary. In this verse, ... a hand full (of
gifts)..., "(of gifts)" comes from the commentary. In the second
verse, I have used anaamaasaani = an-aamasitabba-.t.thaanaani, also
with reference to the commentary.

It is also important to note like all poetry (in any language), Jataka
verses have to follow strict metric requirements. Hence, the text can
be very concise at times, and we have to read the commentary to get
the full story. The same can be said of the Dhammapada verses,
although the Dhammapada stories can often be found in the four Nikayas.

Lastly, I have a question for everyone. In the third verse, we have:

The Kassapas are tortoises, the Kondannas monkeys;
"O Kassapa, let Kondanna go! An indecent act was done by you."

I understand that in India, Sri Lanka and adjacent regions, such as
Kashmir, Nepal, Myanmar and Bangladesh, there is this common belief
that different people (as in a family or clan) are descended from
different animals.

I wonder if this is from pre-Buddhist animist India or post-Buddha
times when the Vedic caste system partially collapsed. Similar beliefs
can still be found among African tribes. While I remain to be
corrected, such beliefs are also found in ancient cultures, like Egypt
and Greece, and even Japan and China (to a lesser extent).

My question is in this verse, we have "The Kassapas are tortoises, the
Kondannas monkeys;", are we exactly referring to the cultural belief I
have just mentioned? If we consider that the Jataka was compiled at
the First Council, can we say that such thinking was already part of
the popular culture during the Buddha's times? Thank you.


metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johan wijaya wrote:

Thanks for the summary, they are quite similar to the notes written in
Dictionary of Pali Proper Name, by Malalasekera....and also thank you
very much for the verse translations.

I don't have the list of passages PTS translates into Latin. However,
we would compile the Latin translation done by PTS as we are trying to
translate the PTS translation. But so far, it's the second time I read
Latin translation (one is the story of Elephant and a Beetle, which is
only one verse) and I am making note of them....my friends here are
not reporting that they have ever found Latin translation. If anyone
here ever met such translation, please share it with us.

O yeah, Could anyone share their ideas of what the first verse
actually means, as I don't really get the point.

Translation from the Latin (given by Piya):
Which brahmin comes for food, or monk seeks alms,
With hand outstretched and proferref bowl?

Translation from the Pali (given by Yong Peng):
Who then is a brahmin like a served meal, like a hand full (of gifts);
Where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach?

*a brahmin like a served meal = a brahmin who does like a served meal;
or a brahmin who is like a served meal?? what does 'served meal' refer
to here?
* a hand full (of) gifts = because the monkey was holding the tortoise
as it wouldn't open its mouth and let the monkey go. Am I right?
*where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach =
because Bodhisatta regarded the monkey as a brahmin who were actually
going on an almsround, and wanted to tell him ( in making fun of him)
that he was wrong to come to him (and his hermitage). So it's like a
ironic verse, isn't it?