Dear Johan,

Think of the visual -- the monkey, delicately "trapped" as he was, holding
the tortoise in front of him and walking towards the bodhiisatta -- the
tortoise would have looked like a *begging* bowl in the hands of the
monkey...

...interestingly coinciding with that fact that the monkey was approaching
the bodhiisatta to *beg* for help.
__________________________________________

On 3/28/08, johan wijaya <dhamma_joti@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
Dear (PG) Dave,

Yeah, I shouldn't have been so short-minded by judging Nina being coarse to
you...I actually had the thought that the text itself was coarse and that
was what Nina meant. But reading further to what Nina wrote, "The message in
the Jataka is that the monkey and tortoise should forget their quarrel and
make up, and this message is excellent," made me have that second thought.
I guess my English and my knowledge is also another problem, quite difficult
to get the correct meaning of sentences....^_^
Had I known her, I wouldn't have made that remark.

Dear Nina,
Please forgive me if I have foolishly impeached you.
Wow, what a news! you know Bahasa, a bit at least, don't you?
Bogor group?? I don't really know that there is a group in Bogor (West Java)
translating Tipitaka, but I do know one group in Klaten (Middle Java), Wisma
Sambodhi. Is this what you meant?

Dear Gunnar,
Correct me if I am wrong, Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries are also parts
of the Tipitaka, and therefore can be considered as the Tipitaka. Whether
the verses or the prose was the original, it doesn't make one of them not be
a part of Tipitaka.
With this thinking, we always try to be cautious and play safe when
translating the (parts of) Tipitaka...that's why Pali is just used as
secondary reference.

Dear Yong Peng and all,
At last, you came out......
Thanks for the summary, they are quite similar to the notes written in
Dictionary of Pali Proper Name, by Malalasekera....and also thank you very
much for the verse translations.
I don't have the list of passages PTS translates into Latin. However, we
would compile the Latin translation done by PTS as we are trying to
translate the PTS translation. But so far, it's the second time I read Latin
translation (one is the story of Elephant and a Beetle, which is only one
verse) and I am making note of them....my friends here are not reporting
that they have ever found Latin translation.
If anyone here ever met such translation, please share it with us.

O yeah, Could anyone share their ideas of what the first verse actually
means, as I don't really get the point.
Translation from the Latin (given by Piya):
Which brahmin comes for food, or monk seeks alms,
With hand outstretched and proferref bowl?

Translation from the Pali (given by Yong Peng):
Who then is a brahmin like a served meal, like a hand full (of gifts);
Where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach?

*a brahmin like a served meal = a brahmin who does like a served meal; or a
brahmin who is like a served meal?? what does 'served meal' refer to here?
* a hand full (of) gifts = because the monkey was holding the tortoise as it
wouldn't open its mouth and let the monkey go. Am I right?
*where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach = because
Bodhisatta regarded the monkey as a brahmin who were actually going on an
almsround, and wanted to tell him ( in making fun of him) that he was wrong
to come to him (and his hermitage). So it's like a ironic verse, isn't it?

With Metta,
Jo.

Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@... <pali.smith%40gmail.com>> wrote: Dear
Jo, Nina, PG, Piya, Gunnar and friends,

we have learnt, at least, that kacchapa is the Pali word for tortoise.
Out of the 500+ Jataka tales, there are three on tortoise. The one I
am more familiar with is No. 215. A summary for each of the three can
be found here:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ka/kacchapa_jat_178_215_273.htm

I have made a personal attempt with the verse of No. 273 below:

Kacchapajaataka.m (Pali from CSCD3)

Ko nu uddhita-bhatto-va, puura-hattho-va braahma.no;
who / then / served-meal-like / full-hand-like / brahmin
Who then is a brahmin like a served meal, like a hand full (of gifts);

kaha.m nu bhikkha.m acari, ka.m saddha.m upasa`nkami.
where / now / alms / moved / which / devotee / approached
where did (one) go for alms, which devotee did (one) approach?

Aha.m kapi-(a)smi dummedho, anaamaasaani* aamasi.m;
I / monkey-am / foolish / places that ought not be touched / touched
A foolish monkey I am, touching places ought not be touched;

* (comy) anaamaasaani = an-aamasitabba-.t.thaanaani

tva.m ma.m mocaya* bhaddante, mutto gaccheyya pabbata.m.
you / me / set free / "sir" / released / would go / woods
You, sir, set me free, the released would return to the woods.

* moceti = mocayati > [imperative 2nd singular:] mocaya

Kacchapaa kassapaa honti, ko.n.da~n~naa honti makka.taa;
tortoises / Kassapas / are / Kondannas / are / monkeys
The Kassapas are tortoises, the Kondannas monkeys;

mu~nca kassapa ko.n.da~n~na.m, kata.m methunaka.m tayaa-ti.
let go! / Kassapa / Kondanna / made / sexual act / by you
"O Kassapa, let Kondanna go! An act was done by you."

Jo: It would be good if you can provide a list of passages PTS
translates into Latin. I think such a list makes a good reference.
Someone may even make a Pali-Latin dictionary out of it, even though
they are "coarse" stories. ;-)

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, johan wijaya wrote:

I'd still be grateful id you would translate the verses parts.





---------------------------------
Tired of visiting multiple sites for showtimes?
Yahoo! Movies is all you need

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/12375;_ylc=X3oDMTM2dm9iY2ppBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BG1zZ0lkAzEyNDU4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIwNjY5OTg0MAR0cGNJZAMxMjM3NQ-->
(24) Reply (via web post)
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxODRsMWJ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BG1zZ0lkAzEyNDU4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIwNjY5OTg0MA--?act=reply&messageNum=12458>|
Start a new topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMHZxdnJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIwNjY5OTg0MA-->
Messages<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZDN2OHM1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIwNjY5OTg0MA-->|
Files<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNW9xbTNxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2ZpbGVzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDY2OTk4NDA->|
Photos<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMGZ1YW91BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Bob3QEc3RpbWUDMTIwNjY5OTg0MA-->|
Links<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJmY3AxZXRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2xpbmtzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDY2OTk4NDA->|
Database<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNjZqbjA5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2RiBHN0aW1lAzEyMDY2OTk4NDA->|
Polls<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcDVhcHRnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3BvbGxzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDY2OTk4NDA->|
Calendar<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZmt0dTVmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2NhbARzdGltZQMxMjA2Njk5ODQw>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.
[image: Yahoo! Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOHUwcHQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjA2Njk5ODQw>
Change settings via the
Web<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnRhMm43BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDY2OTk4NDA->(Yahoo!
ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily
Digest<Pali-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email+Delivery:+Digest>|
Switch
format to Traditional<Pali-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change+Delivery+Format:+Traditional>
Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYWhrMWNxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjA2Njk5ODQw>|
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>| Unsubscribe
<Pali-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=>
Recent Activity

- 7
New Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbGtqZDd2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDY2OTk4NDA->
- 1
New Files<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJncjA2N2R2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMjA2Njk5ODQw>

Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbHFyMjU3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIwNjY5OTg0MA-->
Moderator Central

Get answers to<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13or9f7vr/M=493064.12016262.12445669.8674578/D=groups/S=1705073947:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1206707041/L=/B=CBuYE0LaX98-/J=1206699841038437/A=5028928/R=0/SIG=11e3tma2a/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/moderatorcentral>

your questions about

running Y! Groups.
Y! Groups blog

the best source<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13okbpll5/M=493064.12016258.12582637.8674578/D=groups/S=1705073947:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1206707041/L=/B=CRuYE0LaX98-/J=1206699841038437/A=5191955/R=0/SIG=112mhte3e/*http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/>

for the latest

scoop on Groups.
Best of Y! Groups

Discover groups<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oc73je1/M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=groups/S=1705073947:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1206707041/L=/B=ChuYE0LaX98-/J=1206699841038437/A=4763762/R=0/SIG=11ou7otip/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/bestofyahoogroups/>

that are the best

of their class.
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]