Dear Branko, John and Nina,

Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
me, since a reference was made about my postings.

The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10022

I accept that 'measure' is a "clearer, more specific" word in this
context, as the PTS has mattaa=pamaa.na. It becomes more specific when
we have "measure of gift", i.e. we are restricting to the quality of a
donation. To keep it simple, let's just use "measure of gift" without
further deliberation.

The first paragraph, in plain English, means,

With the dhammavinaya poorly preached, (it is taught) the "measure of
gift" should be known by the giver, not the recipient.

Paraphrasing:

According to a lousy dhamma teacher, the giver should know how much he
is giving, or how much he should give (moderation). For example, if a
monk approaches you, and asks you to donate 10% of your income, no
more or less, that is lousy. (This is a lousy example, but that's what
I can come up with now.)

The second paragraph, means exactly the opposite:

According to a good dhamma teacher, the recipient should know what he
is been given.

I think the essence of this short utterance by the Buddha addresses a
few key issues.

1. greed: the recipient should know how much is received (measure) or
how much is enough (moderation), and not keep on receiving from others.

2. generosity: on the other hand, the giver should not be overly
concerned with how much is given (measure), whether or not it is
enough/excessive (moderation). The idea is to give generously and
within one's means, not about "creating good kamma" (which is very
typical in popular Buddhism), since the later is related to greed (of
future wealth).

This obviously has little (if any) to do with giving presents/gifts to
your loved ones, which is obviously a slightly different case. I hope
the explanation helps.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic wrote:

somehow couldn't grasp the meaning even after consulting translation
given by Mr Ong Yong Peng on this list, message #10022:

7. "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa jaanitabbaa,
no pa.tiggaahakena.
badly preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by giver /
moderation / should be known / not / recipient
"(With) the badly preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
giver moderation should be known, not the recipient.

8. "Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
jaanitabbaa, no daayakena.
well preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by recipient /
moderation / should be known / not / giver
"(With) the well preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
recipient moderation should be known, not the giver.

What is the message of this? That the one who wrongly teaches
Dhamma-Vinaya should realize that by himself? I'm rather confused.