Re: Meaning of Dhamma

Dave, I agree. I prefer your rewrite to my original version. When I get a
chance I will write up loke and email out to the group. Best regards, Mike

A lecture like the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and the different uses of the
words Dhamma and Loke are easier to understand if one realizes that the
historic Budhha is an arhant speaking. The meanings of the words are only
consistent from the perspective of the arhant."

_____

From: P G Dave [mailto:pgd2507@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:00 PM
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Meaning of Dhamma

Yes Mike, do write your explanation of "loke", as well. It would be nice to
read.

A brief comment on your following observation:

****************

"A lecture like the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and the different uses of the
words Dhamma and Loke are easier to understand if one realizes that the
historic Budhha is assuming in the lecture that you are an arhant. The
meanings of the words are only consistent from the perspective of the
arhant."

****************

I wouldn't say the "Buddha is assuming that you are an arahant." there would
be no need for him to speak at all then...

I would say,

"A lecture like the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and the different uses of the
words Dhamma and Loke are easier to understand if one realizes that the
historic Budhha is an arhant speaking. The meanings of the words are only
consistent from the perspective of the arhant."

with metta,

______________________________________________

On 8/18/07, Mike Stelmach <mfstelmach@...> wrote:

Dear Pali Friends (including Nina, DC Wijeratna and Vinod, Ong Yong and
Ruwan),

I have not written to the Pali group before.

I have been reading the thread on "Meaning of Dhamma" and I have looked at
the link by Nina on the word Dhamma that is incredibly comprehensive:

http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/scope/dhamma

I would like to add my perspective on the word Dhamma that is based on my
study of the Pali version of the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and has been
confirmed to some extent by my own daily mediation practice. My perspective
below is also based on what I imagine the historic Buddha intended as the
meaning of the word Dhamma when he used it during his lectures (discourses).
My perspective seems to be quite different from what I have read in the
thread or on Nina's web page:

1. Dhamma (to a non-meditator): The truth or natural laws of
physics/chemistry/biology (limited to what is known by the individual
non-meditator) that pertains to the local environment around them including
everything that can be perceived in any way by 5 of the 6 senses spheres or
ayatana (eye, ear, tongue, skin, nose). NOTE: I do not include the mind as a
sense sphere for a non-meditator.

2. Dhamma (to a beginning/intermediate/advanced monk/meditator): The combine

total truth or natural laws physics/chemistry/biology (including what is
known and what is not yet known) of the entire cosmos. This includes a
complete understanding of everything that really exists in the universe and
everything that really exists beyond the universe. It does not include
anything that is imagined that does not exist.

3. Dhamma (to an arhant, one who has removed all of the impurities from his
mind): the contents of the mind that reconstructs a truthful representation
of the world outside the body and the mind (kaya and citte).

The above are three of many possibly valid definitions of Dhamma. However,
to the arhant all valid definitions are subsets of each other.

However, I do not believe the meaning of the word Dhamma changes. It is the
meditators level of practice that determines how much understanding of the
Dhamma they are able to comprehend.

To the arhant, who has removed all of the impurities from his/her mind, the
Dhamma that is the contents of their mind corresponds to the local
environment around them (Dhamma) and also corresponds a complete
understanding of everything that really exists in the universe and
everything that really exists beyond the universe (Dhamma).

To meditator that is not an arhant, the impurities in their mind (sankhara)
will filter their perception and cause distortions and delusions (moha) to
reality. Therefore, for the non-arhant the contents of the mind will not
correspond exactly to the reality of nature.

I believe I could write up a similar synergistic explanation of "Loke" if
anyone is interested.

A lecture like the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and the different uses of the
words Dhamma and Loke are easier to understand if one realizes that the
historic Budhha is assuming in the lecture that you are an arhant. The
meanings of the words are only consistent from the perspective of the
arhant.

The word Dhamma is an incredibly powerful and magnificent word as used by
the historic Buddha. The word Dhamma can mean different things to different
people depending on their level of practice. However, to the arhant all of
these different meanings of Dhamma are consistent.

I am truly grateful to this group and the related websites. It is a
wonderful resource for the Pali language.

Best regards,

Mike Stelmach

-----Original Message-----
From: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
<mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
van Gorkom
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 1:24 AM
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Meaning of Dhamma

Dear DC Wijeratna and Vinod,
Thank you for your remarks. As you say, knowing and seeing is
important. Can we say: understanding the four noble Truths is the aim
of the teachings? It is the way to overcome ignorance and eventually
to be liberated from the cycle of birth and death.
I would like to add a few quotes: from the Co. to the Mahaaniddesa,
of the Khuddhaka Nikåya, the Commentary to the "Guhaììaka Sutta-
niddesa", "the Cave". I take this from 'The Perfections' by Sujin
Boriharnwanaket, and add her remarks:

"The term 'paññå' means: it penetrates. What does it penetrate? It
penetrates the noble Truths, the Truth of, 'This is dukkha...' "

Sujin: The noble Truth of dukkha is not merely dukkha which is
suffering, oppressing us in daily life, such as loss of possessions,
blame, pain etc. The noble Truth of dukkha is the truth that nothing
is permanent, that whatever arises such as seeing, hearing, thinking,
happiness or pain arises just for an extremely short moment and then
disappears. Knowing, "this is dukkha", means, knowing that what
arises and falls away immediately is dukkha.

We read further on in the Commentary quoted above:

"This kind of paññå is an indriya, a controlling faculty, in the
sense of predominance, because it overcomes ignorance, avijjå."...
Again, the development of paññå with the aim to realize the four
noble Truths is walking a very long way, namely traversing the cycle
of birth and death."

Sujin: If paññå arises we can understand that the cycle of birth and
death we have traversed thus far is extremely long. So long as paññå
has not become accomplished, the path leading to the end of the cycle
is still extremely long. Thus, as we read, for the development of
paññå we have an extremely long way to go. We have to go to the
further shore, into the direction of nibbåna, where, according to the
Commentary, "we never went yet, not even in our dreams".
(end quotes)
Nina.

Op 14-aug-2007, om 14:19 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:
>
> The aim of the Buddha's Dhamma is not understanding, it appears.
> [See for example, Walpola Rahula]
>
> It is about Dukkha and Cessation of Dukkha.
>
> It is well-known that the teaching of the Four Noble Truths
> encompasses the whole of the Buddha's teaching.
> The four are: dukkha, dukkha samudaya, dukkha nirodha, dukkha
> nirodha-gaaminii pa.tipadaa.
>
> So you can appreciate that dukkha and its cessation is the concern
> of the Four Noble Truths.
>
> Cessation has to be achieved by travelling the path (practice) or
> pa.tipdaa. This is the noble eightfold path.
>
> 'Knowing and seeing' (jaanaati, passati) is required along the way,
> if that is what is meant by understanding.
>
> Buddhist 'jaanaati passati' and English 'understanding' are
> different concepts.
>

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