Dear Piya and Peter,

someone used to say, "Without religion, it takes good men to do good
and evil men to do evil. With religion, it takes good men to do evil."
If we look at the history of religion, we can clearly see the validity
of this statement. Even in the present day, there are plenty of
examples. James Kopp is a good one.

Piya: I have not heard about Nanavira previously, but reading your
article (I have not read your article until last week) leaves behind a
lot of questions about him. While you must have achieved your
objectives for your article, your brief account of Nanavira does not
necessarily do him right. Alas. A dead man cannot speak for himself.

I can understand that your writings are always evangelical in flavor,
from when you were a monk up till now. However, I believe there is a
limit as to how far evangelism should go before it starts getting onto
people's nerves. Most people just want to be good, and live a life of
their choice. You chose to become a monk, and later you chose to have
a family. Those were your choices. Similarly, everyone should have be
able to make choices for him/herself.

Peter: Buddhism is a religion about respect. Out of respect for life,
we abstain from killing, neither do we encourage suicide. Nanavira's
story is no doubt a tragic one, it reminds us of the constant
challenges we have to face in life, and the compassion and wisdom we
need to develop to help ourselves and others through times of difficulty.

To all: Let's take a break from this topic. If there is any questions
on Piya's article, please write to him in private.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> It is to one's advantage to be able to see good even in the evil,
although
> this may be
> difficult in some cases who have done great evil (such as Hitler).
> Nevertheless, with
> some understanding we will see that people are mostly products of
their past
> karma
> and present circumstances.
>
> Anyone who seeks inner peace (as Nanavira and others like him)
surely have
> great
> potential goodness within. Whether or not one is a saint is only
another's
> guess. (I
> have written a whole article on this elsewhere based on the Suttas.)
>
> As I said earlier, one great way to deeper wisdom (not that I claim
it) is
> to constantly
> sk "why do I think this way" (I try to do that). In understand this as a
> form of wise
> attention (yoniso manasikaara) taught as vitakka,sankhaara,santhaana
in the
> Vitakka
> Santhana Sutta (M 20).
>
> I think the Buddha has made the rule about monastics' not claiming
spiritual
> states (esp
> those who have not truly attained) is not only to prevent flies from
coming
> to the sugar
> (and so drown in it), but to encourage each of us to work towards inner
> stillness so
> that we can ourselves attain stream-winning in this life itself.
>
> Thank you Peter for reminding me of Nanavira's good side, which I
fail to
> mention. And also
> for thoughtfully sharing your insights.
>
> If we are respectfully open and curious about one another ,even
facelessly
> on the net, we
> can still bring out one another's goodness. I always try to remember
what,
> after all, learning
> Pali is about, it is about the grammar of word, but more so about the
> grammar of sprituality
> of the Buddha Dhamma.
>
> Every day is Vesak for those who seek within.
>
> Piya Tan
>
> On 5/27/07, Peter Tomlinson <gnanayasa@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello to all,
> > With all due respect, I knew Nanasumana, one of the last people to see
> > Nanavira alive, and I visited Bundala, the sire of Nanavira's life and
> > death. I have read "Notes on Dhamma" often and respect Nanavira's
claim of
> > Sotapanna. His sexual troubles notwithstanding, his Amoebiosis was
what he
> > claimed was killing him.
> >
> > I do not deny the Satyriosis that he admitted to. It is a
psychological
> > problem I am told, yet does this mean he was deluded about his
attainment?
> > does this cast doubt on "Notes on Dhamma"?
> >
> > His suicide was tragic, but he claimed he believed that he would
be reborn
> > in a state where he could practice Dhamma as he would have done
had it not
> > been for his disease. I read all of his letters and helped compile his
> > writings with Sumana and Nanasuci and others.
> >
> > I feel often that many did not understand what Nanavira tried to do by
> > sending out "Notes on Dhamma" and that this has caused criticism.
> > Please forgive me if I have offended, that is not my intention.
> >
> > Peter Tomlinson
> >
> > Piya Tan <dharmafarer@... <dharmafarer%40gmail.com>> wrote: On
> > 5/26/07, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@... <dharmafarer%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Lest Yong Peng be misunderstood, please note that he is not
criticizing
> > me,
> > > but
> > > referring to section of "The danger of subjectivism" (Intro 2) in my
> > > essay. I need to
> > > clarify this.
> > >
> > > Looking back (I worked on the essay in 2005), other than the Sutta
> > > translation, I enjoyed researching section 5 of the
Introduction, about
> > why
> > > and how the Italian wealthy eccentric Baron Evola tried to force his
> > > romanticized idea of suicide into Buddhism, and how the tragic
western
> > monk
> > > Nanavira, troubled with his sexuality, in the end committed suicide.
> > These
> > > are painful truths many monks even today face.
> > >
> > > For them, let me say it is vital to find good spiritual friends in
> > > teachers with still minds. There is often the danger when they
don the
> > robe
> > > they think they should not listen to
> > > other teachers, esp teachers from other Buddhist ordinations. As
they
> > > reach seniority,
> > > it becomes harder for them to learn, esp thinking more devotees
respect
> > > them. So they
> > > live a Jekyll and Hyde life.
> > >
> > > Buddhism is about liberating yourself, not about self-pride or which
> > > school one belongs to.
> > >
> > > Piya Tan
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
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>
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