Michael,

How about this sutta: DN II 70-71, and also the Chinese counterpart
of Susima Sutta: SA 347 (T2 pp. 96a-98a).

Thomas Law

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" <mbeisert@...> wrote:
>
> Susima Sutta:
>
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:
>
> This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can
attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas,
but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at
all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have
attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of
right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have
acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact
with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond
forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no
different from that given in AN
9.44<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.htm
l> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness"
and "released in both ways" given in AN
9.43<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.htm
l> and AN
9.45<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.htm
l>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on
right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new
arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first
jhana before attaining Awakening.
>
> Michael
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>