Dear Nina and John,

Nina, thanks for the correction to 'sabbaloke'.

a.t.thikasa~n~naa: I am fine with "perception/awareness of a
skeleton", only that 'recognition' is a function of the mind to me
too.

upasamaanussati: thanks for pointing out that 'upasama' refers to
Nibbana. PTS has it as 'tranquillity', and I was thinking it in
terms of 'samatha'. I inserted 'virtues' to indicate that the
recollection(s) is about the qualities/attributes of the subject.
And 'virtues' means _good_ qualities/attributes.

amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m: I have looked back to the earlier
messages, and I quote you "The meaning is: as a true bhikkhu he
deserves the almsfood. If he would be a bad bhikkhu and takes the
requisites, he is like a thief, it is said in the Visuddhimagga."
And you did agree with "he eats the people's almsfood not (given) in
vain". See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10494

I agree the meaning, in the spirit of the sutta, is about a monk (or
nun) living up to the expectations of a monk (or nun). The PTS
version of "to some purpose" is not an exact reflection of the Pali
meaning. The meaning of "amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m" is
roughly "almsfood not wasted", as in not given to a bad bhikkhu. To
make it clearer in English, how about "the people's almsfood (he)
eats (was) not (given away) vainly" or "the people's almsfood (he)
eats (is) not (taken) vainly"?

John, if "by recollection of our own virtuous conduct ... we can
generate great joy in the world", then life would be very easy. I
agree that 'siila' has a broader meaning than 'precept'. In the
spirit of the sutta, no.496 is about a meditation subject, primarily
concerned with establishing concentration, and I think the
attributes/virtues of precepts is very appropriate. PTS has it
as 'morality', which is fine with me. The commentary does not
comment much, but please note that the word 'morality' itself can
also be too broad. Furthermore, different cultures define morality
differently, hence we have to be careful about using the word.


metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

N: sabbaloke: is singular. In the whole world. Meant is; all
conditioned dhammas, or the five khandhas.

recognition of a skeleton: perception or awareness of a skeleton: it
is a meditation subject.

upasamaanussati: thanks for pointing out that 'upasama' refers to
Nibbana. PTS has it as 'tranquillity', and I was thinking it in
terms of 'samatha'. I inserted 'virtues' to indicate that the
recollection(s) is about the qualities/attributes of the subject.
And 'virtues' simply means _good_ qualities/attributes.

> 92-101. ... upasamaanussati.m bhaveti... .
> develops recollection of the virtues of calmness), [even for the
> duration of a finger-snap..."]

N: By this is meant nibbaana, and usually it is translated as peace.

I read this in the Visuddhimagga.
It sounds strange: the virtues of nibbaana.

> Aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave - 'bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati
> satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro, amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m
> bhu~njati'.
> Monks, such is said - 'The monk, engaged in (the practice of) jhana
> (he) lives, complying with the Buddha's teachings and heeding the
> advice, (he) eats the people's almsfood not given in vain'.

N: aya.m: this is said, such sounds somewhat strange to me.

as to: `not given in vain`: we discussed this before. PTS has: he
eats it to some purpose. I see it from the monk's side. How virtuous
is he?

The Visuddhimagga Ch I, 127,128 speaks about the use of the
requisites: <Although given by the laity, they actually belong to
the Blessed One, because it is by the Blessed One that they are
permitted. they can be used as master (by the arahat), as
inheritance (by ariyans who are not arahats), use as a debt which is
not allowable, and use as theft which is very wrong. That is when he
is not virtuous. It all depends on the virtues or absence of virtues
of the bhikkhu who receives them.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, John Kelly wrote:

> * siilaanussati (f) recollection of precepts.
> - siila (n) precept.

I think that 'precept' is a too narrow translation of this very
important word, and feel that it is better translated as 'virtuous
conduct' or 'morality' or similar. It is by recollection of our own
virtuous conduct that we can generate great joy in the world.