Bhante,

An important teaching I have learned from Bhante Sujato, even if this is
something I have always believed in (esp when I was a monk decades back) is
that "silence is no option." (He said this in his "History of Mindfulness.)

The internet is a lawless jungle and noisy marketplace, with everyone an
expert with their own devices about Buddhism. The reason for this is that
those who know are often silent.

I am sure that I am not alone in appreciating your open and helpful remarks
(like those here). I hope more practitioners such as yourself be constantly
in our midst to guide us, straighten our views and admonish us.

Wrong views are very quickly spread through the internet, so this is an
important area that forest monks and practitioners have to be present with
compassion and wisdom for the sake of spiritual correctness.

What you have written here and earlier on leaves me with much to
contemplate on, and will surely benefit many.

After all we are here to learn the Dharma (through Pali etc).

I am sending separately to your own email, an essay "Who really is the
first nun?" from Sutta Discovery vol 1 in response to your query regarding
the ehi bhikkhu.nii.

May this be a good year for us all, as will those to come.

Namakkara.m

Piya


At 05:40 AM 14-01-06, you wrote:

>Dear Friends,
>
>There are several points in the suttas which suggest that the meaning of
>'nibbidaa' is something quite strong:
>
>- there are several similes directly connected with nibbidaa, the one about
>a beautiful brahmin youth, boy or girl, freshly bathed, dressed and having
>put on their perfume/ aftershave, and then someone comes along and hangs the
>rotten corpse of a doy, a snake or a human around their neck.
>
> [eg. AN book of nines, vol.4 p.373, last two stanzas of Sariputta's 'lion's
>roar'.] Admittedly it doesn't actually mention the word 'nibbidaa' but I
>think it's wouldn't be wrong to explain nibbidaa with this simile, which
>occurs several other times too.
>
>- The other simile for how one feels when one understands the nature of
>sense contact 'yathaabhuuta.m' is in the puttama.nsa sutta (AN fours) where
>it compares phassa, all sense contact, to 'flies landing on the back of a
>skinned cow'.
>
> - And another simile, again not explicitly using the word nibbidaa I'm
>afraid, is in the verses of Taalaputta Thera, where he says something like,
>'when oh when will I come to see all sankhaaras as like a blazing inferno!'
>
> - And again, the normal phrase used in contexts which seem to be about
>nibbidaa, unfortunately without including the word, is 'haarayati, attiyati,
>jegucchati' - BB's translation is 'horified, ashamed and disgusted'.
>
>- There's also a mention in the 'seven perceptions' (AN) about, 'and either
>this will lead to nibbidaa or to upekkhaa', which i take as confirmation
>that they are two significantly different qualitities, and of course
>upekkhaa is the more mature stage.
>
>Although I don't think any of these passages, and there are more, actually
>use the word 'nibbidaa' they obviously refer to a very powerful experience
>of disgust, revulsion, even aversion, so I think even 'disenchantment' is
>too soft here.
>
>Etymologically I think 'aversion' is quite good, since it literally means
>'turning away', although 'turning inwards' would be more accurate, and in
>the experience in some ways the negative side of 'aversion, disgust or
>revulsion' is present, but it's also usually associated with some kind of
>piiti-sukha (joy and bliss), usually down-flowing piiti, and the results of
>course are not negative. However, I also wouldn't use 'aversion' in a
>translation because of the way it is likely to be misunderstood, but I might
>use it when explaining it in more detail.
>
>As in my comments on 'tejo-dhaatu samaapatti', I think we have to be very
>careful of assuming as mostly-scholars and relatively in-experienced
>meditators, and of course I'm including myself, that the 'soft' or mild way
>in which we've experienced nibbidaa is all there is to it. Again, I've heard
>from some of the great meditation masters in Thailand that they experienced
>what you might call 'nibbidaa' extremely strongly. I remember LP Liem gave
>the simile of when someone goes fishing for eels, and they reach down into
>their net to pull out an eel, and as they pull it out they realise that they
>have got hold of a very poisonous snake, and without hesitation or any
>regret they throw it away as far as they can. He says that's what it's like
>when you see the true nature of all kinds of existence.
>
>I also have some questions for you about the 'ehi bhikkhuni' upasampada, and
>no that isn't a typo!
>
>There is an 'ehi bhikkhuni' upasampada mentioned at least twice in the
>Suttas and Vinaya.
>
>The first one could easily have been produduced by an indiscriminate copying
>from bhikkhu vibhanga, it is in the definition of a 'bhikkhuni' in
>bhikkhunii parajika 1.
>
>The second is slightly harder to explain away and that is in the verses of
>Bhadda Theri (Thig 109).
>
>
>'Bending my knee and paying homage, I made anjali in front of him.
>"Come, Bhaddaa", he said to me: that was my full ordination'.
>
>Isthis just a simplification of the situation in verse, or is it just an
>inspiring summary of what really happened and actually she was ordained by a
>bhikkhu or bhikkhuni sangha with a nyatticatutthakamma, or could this be a
>trace of a contradiction to the rest of the story about the bhikkhuni's that
>has come down to us, which might well have been 'edited' rather freely at
>the second council? (The second council conspiracy theory is not my own
>hypothesis, actually I doubt it, but this 'ehi bhikkhuni' point doesn't
>fit.)
>
>It's also possible that Mahapajapati Gotami's ordination by the acceptance
>of the garudhammas could have been 'classified' as an 'ehi bhikkhuni'
>upasampada. Compare for example the occasions when some of the great bhikkhu
>disciples were given a short teaching by the buddha, and then it says, 'and
>that was his full ordination'. I guess these are probably being 'classified'
>as 'ehi bhikkhu' upasampadas.
>
>Does anyone have any other explanations of 'ehi bhikkhuni'?
>
> Mettaya, Bhikkhu Santidhamma.
>
> Santi Forest Monastery, 6 Coalmines Road (PO Box 132), Bundanoon, NSW
>2578, Australia.
>Abbot: Bhante Sujata.
>Tel: [66] 02 4883 6331.
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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Piya Tan
Lecturer & Instructor
Brahm Education Centre
Singapore
website: www.brahmec.com

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