Re: SV: SV: [Pali] where is Pava?

Dear Ole,

I feel very rude for not having thanked you earlier for your help!
I've been otherwise occupied for a few days. Thanks for your
explanations.

Bhante Sujato

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@...>
wrote:

>
> Dear Bhante,
>
> Soreyyaka is a Burmese reading for Sora.t.thaka < Sanskrit

Saura.straka

> "coming from Suraat" i.e. the extreme southwest in relation to

Saaketaka

> mentioned before Sora.t.thaka that is followed by references to

Paa.theyyaka

> (presumably people living in the west) and people living in the

north west

> as well as the extreme north west e.g. Alasanda (Alexandria).
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ole
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne

af Bhante

> Sujato
> Sendt: 6. december 2005 06:21
> Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: Re: SV: [Pali] where is Pava?
>
>
> Dear Ole,
>
> Thanks for that mention. Indeed, my CSCD has 'paaveyyaka' in that
> place, so in this case at least it is a Burmese reading. (I wonder
> why Malalasekera said that paa.theyyaka was a Burmese reading?).

The

> Milinda reference associating paa.theyyakaa and the (north)-

western

> regions is a bit fuzzy. Just before are mentioned Magadha,

Saaketa,

> and Soreyya, none of which are far West; saaketa is south east of
> Saavatthi (i'm not exactly sure where Soreyya is - by the way,

does

> anyone know where i can access a good online map of Buddhist
> India?). This, of course, doesn't prove that the paaveyyakas are

not

> from the far west, but equally does not prove that they are.
>
> The mention of Saketa certainly matches up with the Timsamatta
> paaveyyaka bhikkhus of the Kathinakkhandhaka, who, pausing on the
> way to savatthi, spend the vassa at Saketa. It doesn't, however,
> seem likely that they stopped there on the way from the west to
> Savatthi: they were in a hurry and were hardly likely to veer off

> the south-east. But it is here that the commentary tells us:
> Paaveyya.m naama kosalesu pacchimadisaabhaage ra.t.tha.m (Paveyya

> a country to the west of Kosala). As far as i can see, this is the
> only explicit reference to a Paaveyya/Paa.theyya in the western
> regions, though the references in the Milinda and the
> Sattasatikakkhandhaka are certainly compatible with this
> interpretation. Thus the only explicit reference to a far
> western 'paaveyya' is in a context that makes this description
> unlikely.
>
> As a further note, all the commentarial readings i have been able

> track down say 'paaveyyaka'. In addition, the few Skt and Chinese
> references i have checked also read 'paavaa', or rather 'paapaa'
> (the Chinese usually use the same transcription they use
> for 'paapimaa' and similar terms).
>
> The timsamatta paveyyakas also appear at SN 15.13 at Rajagaha,

which

> is a long way from home if they stem from the far west.
>
> Thus i remain uncertain whether we should accept any
> reading 'paa.theyya', and whether we should accept
> a 'paaveyya/paa.theyya' to the far west.
>
> yours in directional dukkha,
>
> 'Samantamasaaro loko, disaa sabbaa sameritaa...'
>
> Bhante Sujato
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ole Holten Pind"

<oleholtenpind@...>

> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Bhante,
> >
> > Please notice that Paa.theyyaka is mentioned Mil 331 in the
> context of
> > northwestern regions. The reading paaveyyaka appears to be
> Burmese. In some
> > cases it contrasts with paaciina "eastern" and therefore must
> denote
> > inhabitants of the west. The affix -eyya/eyyaka commonly denotes
> inhabitants
> > of a particular region or city. There is clearly no Paavaa 3.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Ole Pind
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
> af Bhante
> > Sujato
> > Sendt: 5. december 2005 10:50
> > Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> > Emne: [Pali] where is Pava?
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I'm trying to pin down the stories surrounding the town of

Paavaa

> > with some more precision. Unfortunately, there seem to be at

least

> > three 'Pavas':
> >
> > Paavaa 1. The town of the Mallas, near Kusinara, where the

Buddha

> > ate his last meal, also where, according to the Suttas, Mahavira
> the
> > leader of the Jains, met his end.
> >
> > Paavaa 2. Another Pava, or 'Paavapuuri', near Pataliputta (ie,
> south
> > of the Ganges), which is where the Svetambara Jains say Mahavira
> > passed away. Normally one might be more inclined to accept the
> > Jains' own account of the death of their founder; but the Jain
> > scriptures are much later than the Pali, and this tradition is

> > any case not shared by all the Jains, so it is unclear whether

> > should favor the Buddhist or the Jain account here.
> >
> > Paavaa 3. A third Pava, which according to a Pali commentary
> > (where???), is west of Kosala; this might be identified as the
> home
> > of the 'Paaveyyakas' of the Second Council account in the
> > Khandhakas.
> >
> > The situation is confused by variant readings. De la Vallee
> Poisson
> > accepted the reading 'patheya' for Paavaa 3, quoting a source

that

> > claims patheya to be a general term for the western regions,
> > including Avanti, etc. (But this might be just a circular

argument

> > derived from the Khandaka account of the Second Council,
> > where 'paaveyyaka/paa.theyyaka' is indeed used in the sense
> > of 'those from the western regions'.)
> >
> > However, the Dictionary Of Pali Proper Names rejects the

reading,

> > given there as 'Paa.theyyaka', as a peculiarity of the Burmese
> > manuscript tradition. This is followed by Horner in her Vinaya
> > translation.
> >
> > The sources available to me occasionally note the commentarial
> > mention of a 'Paavaa' that is 'way out west' beyond Savatthi,
> > without addressing the problem that this cannot be the same as
> > Paavaa 1, featured in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta.
> >
> > Are there two Paavaas north of the Ganges, or a Paavaa and a
> > Patheya, or is the commentarial mention of Paavaa 3 to be
> rejected?
> > Help!
> >
> > yours,
> >
> > Bhante Sujato
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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