These clauses are nominal clauses,i.e., there is no copula. The sentence
quoted below really says kamma formations are avijjaa-ascause-possessing,
which one can paraphrase as kamma formations have avijjaa as their cause and
so on with the rest of the clauses.
Hope this helps a bit. Remember that possessive compounds are not all off
them like bahubbihi "having plenty of rice" where an adjective (bahu)
qualfies a noun viz. bihi rice.

Hope this helps a bit.

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af rsalm
Sendt: 15. oktober 2005 09:21
Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [Pali] Translation problem # 3 SN XII.23

Sorting out compounds is important to me, so please be patient. Maybe some
of us can learn something about these darn things in this difficult process.

> iti, kho, bhikkhave, avijjuupanisaa sa'nkhaaraa...

Whatever these words mean, I think we can be sure that they must form a
complete statement. I don't think anyone will contest that the passage in
Paali is a series of self-contained statements or "clauses." Some of the
translations which have already been submitted on this thread reflect this,
while others don't seem to fit and are incomplete. I review the second type
here:



INCOMPLETE ("open")

(1) Thus, indeed, monks, kammic formations which have a cause which is
ignorance...

(2) Thus, indeed, monks, 'sa'nkhaaraa' which has 'avijjuupanisaa'...

(3) Thus, indeed, monks, sa'nkhaaraa having avijjaa as upanisaa...



As one can see, in each of these cases we need more words (within the
clause, of course-not in another clause). These are bahubbiihis. Warder
writes (137): "A bahubbiihi compound is always equivalent to a relative
(subordinate) clause: "who has/was...", "which has/was..." We see this in
the above constructions 1-3.

So, to have a bahubbiihi here it seems that we would need more words in the
Paali. For example:

> iti, kho, bhikkhave, avijjuupanisaa sa'nkhaaraa dukkha.m,

sa'nkhaaruupanisa.m vi~n~naa.na.m dukkha.m... etc.

> "sankharas *which have avijja as cause* are suffering, consciousness

*which has sankharas as cause* is suffering..." etc. This construction
includes the relative clause that the bahubbiihi requires.

But the Paali doesn't have "dukkha.m." It has only "avijjuupanisaa
sa'nkhaaraa." This is a closed (complete) statement in itself, which we see
in a second category of submissions to this thread in recent days:



COMPLETE (not necessarily correct translations)

(4) Thus, indeed, monks, kammic formations are ignorance-caused,

(5) Thus, indeed, monks, having avijjaa as upanisaa [are] sa'nkhaaraa,
(awkward)

(6) Thus, indeed, monks, sa'nkhaaraa have avijjaa as upanisaa, consciousness
has sa'nkhaaraa as upanisaa, etc.



These translations have no subordinate clause. They are complete units and
fit the Paali. In other words, I respectfully suggest that the construction
that fits is not bahubbiihi, unless there is some kind of bahubbiihi that
has escaped Warder. I would like clarity on this, but understand if people
think this thread has gone on too long...



As mentioned in a previous post, Tp3 (intrumental) or Tp5 (ablative) seem to
fit the context better:

(7) Thus, indeed, monks, sa'nkhaaraa are caused by (through)ignorance,
consciousness is caused by (through) sa'nkhaaraa... (Tp3)

(8) Thus, indeed, monks, sa'nkhaaraa are caused from ignorance,
consciousness is caused from sa'nkhaaraa... (Tp5)

I am always ready to be corrected.

-- Rene

----- Original Message -----
From: Ole Holten Pind
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 5:04 PM
Subject: SV: [Pali] Translation problem # 3 SN XII.23


Not quite. You should translata sankharas having avijja as cause.

Ole Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Click here to rescue a little child from a life of poverty.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rAWabB/gYnLAA/i1hLAA/b0VolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Paa.li-Parisaa
- The Pali Collective [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net [Files]
http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.
Yahoo! Groups Links