Dear Florent,

Past participles and indeclinable past participles (or absolutives or
gerunds, depending on whose grammar you're reading) are similar in
that they refer to action occurring in the past. Warder, p.40: "Past
participles are normally passive in meaning, but past participles of
intransitive verbs, especially of those meaning 'go', 'move', 'go
forth', are sometimes constructed as active." This applies in the
example sentence you give.

> Hiiyo arañña.m gato so puriso ahinaa da.t.tho mari.

I would translate this as:
Yesterday the man went to the forest, was bitten by a serpent and died.

In this case the absolutive 'gantva' would seem to have worked equally
as well, giving the same meaning. Bear in mind that the agent of the
absolutive is always the same as that of the main action. So if the
sentence was trying to indicate that the man was bitten by a serpent
that had gone to the forest, then only a past participle qualifying
serpent could be used.

With metta,
John

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "flrobert2000" <flrobert2000@...> wrote:
>
> Dear John,
>
> Thank you for your remarks. Actually "possessor of an umbrella" didn't
> really sound very nice to me although this is the translation given by
> Buddhadatta for chattii. I somehow translated maalii by "possessor of
> a garland" but by looking again p22 it says maalii="one who has a
> garland" which sounds nicer to me.
>
> As for umbrella, I also checked in the PED and there doesn't seem to
> be any equivalent for that word in Pali. Would that mean that chatta
> is used to protect oneself both from the sun and the rain, or is there
> a word that defines an object to protect oneself from the rain?
> Although it seems that here in Asia people use umbrellas for both
> purposes.
>
> Regarding translations into English I have a problem with the
> following sentence :
>
> Hiiyo arañña.m gato so puriso ahinaa da.t.tho mari.
> yesterday/[to] forest/gone/that/ man / [from] serpent / bitten / died
>
> That I rendered by :
>
> Yesterday, that man who had gone to the forest was bitten by a serpent
> and died.
>
> This sentence doesn't sound too nice either but since English is not
> my mother tongue I have sometimes problems deciding whether it is
> correct or not.
>
> Would the following be better:
>
> Having gone to the forest yesterday and having been bitten by a
> serpent, the man died.
>
> Actually this sentence is the first one of Exercise 19 which tackles
> with Past Participles. Buddhadatta gives only a very brief explanation
> of this concept and I don't see very well the difference with the
> "Indeclinable Past Participles" such as pacitvaa, pivitvaa, etc...Is
> there a big difference in meaning?
>
> Thank you for your help,
>
> Florent
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Florent,
> >
> > > 9. Sikhii chattimhaa bhaayissati.
> > > peacock / [of] possessor of umbrella / will be afraid
> > > The peacock will be afraid of the possessor of umbrella.
> > The term "possessor of" sounds a little awkward in English. How about
> > instead:
> > The peacock will be afraid of the one bearing an umbrella.
> >
> > Also note, that Buddhadatta rendering of chatta as "umbrella" may not
> > be entirely accurate.
> >
> > Quoting from the PED:
> > Chatta (p. 274) (nt.) [late Vedic chattra=*chad--tra, covering to
> > chad, see chādati] a sunshade ("parasol" would be misleading. The
> > handle of a chatta is affixed at the circumference, not at the centre
> > as it is in a parasol), a canopy.
> >
> > Se then:
> > The peacock will be afraid of the one bearing a sunshade.
> >
> > > 11. Tumhe maaliihi sasina.m olokessatha.
> > > you / [with] possessors of garlands / moon / will look at
> > > You will look at the moon with the possessors of garlands.
> > This too sounds awkward to my ears. How about:
> > You will look at the moon with those wearing garlands.
> >
> > With metta,
> > John
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "flrobert2000" <flrobert2000@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > 9. Sikhii chattimhaa bhaayissati.
> > > peacock / [of] possessor of umbrella / will be afraid
> > > The peacock will be afraid of the possessor of umbrella.
> > >
> > > 10. Saarathii asse gaamamhaa harissati.
> > > charioteer / horses / [from] village / lead
> > > The charioteer will lead the horses from the village.
> > >
> > > 11. Tumhe maaliihi sasina.m olokessatha.
> > > you / [with] possessors of garlands / moon / will look at
> > > You will look at the moon with the possessors of garlands.
> > >
> > > 12. Balii daa.thino kaaya.m chindissati.
> > > Powerful person / [of] tusker / body / will cut
> > > The powerful person will cut the tusker's body.
> > >
> > > 13. Amhaaka.m mantino balino abhavi.msu.
> > > our / ministers / powerful men / were
> > > Our ministers were powerful men.
> > >
> > > 14. Se.t.thino maalino passissanti.
> > > millionaires / possessors of garlands / will see
> > > The millionaires will see those who have garlands.
> > >
> > > 15. Maya.m gehe odana.m bhuñjissaama.
> > > we / [in] house / rice / will eat
> > > We will eat rice in the house.
> > >
> >
>