I agree, I remember that is how I learned it from the monastic Pali when I was in Thailand.

Piya

--- Ole Holten Pind <oleholtenpind@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I interpret manopubba.ngama, when qualifying dhammaa (cf. A I 10),
> as a
> possessive compound, roughly "having mano as the thing that
> preceedes"
> (hence preceeded by or conditioned by something), like manoset.t.haa
> (cf.
> Dhammapada 1.1). The next question is, how is pubba.nga in itself to
> be
> interpreted? The problem is the nasal /.n/. There are no precedents
> in
> Sanskrit and the commentators' glosses suggest interpreting the
> compound as
> going as the first thing/person (cf. the use of pubba.ngamo to
> qualify
> people who take the lead, are first in line with respect to this or
> that).
> The alternative would be to interpet pubba.n as an adverb qualifying
> gama in
> the sense walking before, in front, cf. Sanskrit puroga, purogama.
> This is
> the solution I prefer.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Ole Pind
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
> rett
> Sendt: 9. oktober 2005 11:08
> Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: [Pali] pubba"ngama [Re: Pali Day by Day E028 (Ex8B)]
>
> Hi Rene and group,
>
> I think Perniola is right about this somewhat odd and difficult
> compound.
> Your reasoning about it being a tp3 makes sense from the point of
> view of
> the English rendering "mind-preceded", but this English rendering
> distorts
> the way the Pali works. It's a useful distortion, because it sounds
> better
> in English and doesn't harm the sense, but it does change the
> original
> syntax (because 'preceded' is a past participle, which naturally
> supports an
> agent in the instrumental case).
>
> The best that I can understand 'pubba"ngama' is that is means
> "preceding"
> "going before" rather than "preceded" or "gone before". And as an
> adjective
> it can stand alone as a noun meaning "a preceding thing" "something
> going
> before". So the whole compound mano-pubba"ngama means "a preceding
> thing
> which is mind". Therefore in the context I would read the whole
> compund as a
> bahuvriihi, awkwardly and literally: dhammas have preceding-things
> which are
> mind. You can see why translators chose to distort it a little.
>
> So looked at in terms of its internal structure, mano-pubba"ngama,
> would
> indeed be a kammadhaaraya. Looked at in terms of its context in the
> sentence
> it's a bahuvriihi. I hope someone will correct me here if I'm
> wrong.
>
> This reading of pubba"ngama looks to me to be supported by the
> commentary,
> which glosses pubba"ngama with pa.thama-gaamin "first going"
> "previously
> going".
> Dhp-a I, 22 (PED). Cakkhupaalatheravatthu 1, at first verse (Sinh
> etc).
>
> The entire phrase is as follows:
>
> pubba"ngamaa ti tena pa.thamagaaminaa hutvaa samanaagataa.
>
> I'm not sure what the syntax of the commentarial phrase is trying to
> say
> exactly. One thing I'm fairly sure of is that this commentarial
> phrase is
> condensed: for instance apart from the choice of instrumental form
> pa.thamagaaminaa expressing something (probably connected to
> samanaagataa)
> the word is simultaneously also glossing the cited word
> (irrespective of the
> instrumental case here) in a parallel breakdown of the compound:
> pubba =
> pa.thama, gama=gaamin.
>
> Any help with this would be appreciated.
>
> best regards,
>
> /Rett
>
> >
> > > Yesterday, I was looking at the opening words of Dhammapada
> verse 1,
> > > known to so many: "manopubba.ngamaa dhammaa." = mano + pubba [n]
> +
> > > gamaa / dhammaa, in the nominative plural. According to one
> writer
> > > (Perniola/170), the first part is a kammadhaaraya cpd: a noun
> (mano)
> > > + an adj. (pubba.ngama) = "mind-preceded." According to him, the
>
> > > whole cpd. is then turned into an adj. agreeing with dhammaa.
> Thus:
> > > "Mind-preceded [are] dhammaa." I would have thought of a
> tappurisa
> > > of the instrumental kind, as is sometimes translated into
> English:
> > > "Preceded BY mind are dhammaa." But then I suppose the Paali
> would
> > > be: "manasaa pubba.ngamaa dhammaa." I'm pretty new to compounds,
> so
> > > does this all make sense?-- Rene
>
>
>
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