SV: [Pali] Why should no or me not be instrumentals?

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Sendt: 20. september 2005 14:36
Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [Pali] Why should no or me not be instrumentals?

Dear Dr. Pind

Your comment is completely new to me, and I am gratiful if you tell me more.

You says,

The idea that e.g. enclitic me or no are instrumentals is due to a flawed analysis of Pali usage.
---------------------------------

Would you please explain in more detail how the analysis is flawed. As you said, some modern grammarians, like Geiger (and, I think, Warder, V. Perniola, Kogen Mizuno also) think no or me could be instrumental.

No or me cannot possibly be interpreted as instrumentals since Sanskrit nas and me from which Pali no and me are derived are not instrumentals. The reason why no and me mistakenly are interpreted as instrumentals is because it is tacitly assumed that the agent in construction with ta-participles exclusively is expressed by means of the instrumental. This assumption is not correct. There are several examples in Vedic and post-Vedic Sanskrit literature (for instance the Mahabharata) where agency in construction with ta-participles is expressed by the genitive. See, for instance, the examples quoted by Debrunner in Wackernagel, Altindische Grammatik II.2 p. 583. Interestingly Pali has preserved this seemingly archaic usage, which is also reflected in Old Greek, Old Persian and Avestan.

I hope this remark clarifies the issue a bit.

Ole Pind

Ole Holten Pind <oleholtenpind@...> 說：

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Sendt: 20. september 2005 03:22
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Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: [Pali] How to analyze 'Cirssuta' ?

Dear Dr. Pind

Thanks very much for your clarification. Now I understand the point.
Does Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na, which you're editing now, has a rule saying that genitive case also denotes agent in a sentence?

Not exactly, but Kaccayana sutta 310 states that the genitive case is used in the sense of the instrumental case. This rule is based on the assumption among indigenous grammaians that a word in the instrumental case in construction with a ta-participle is used to denote the agent.
The idea that e.g. enclitic me or no are instrumentals is due to a flawed analysis of Pali usage.

By the way, when will you finish your work on Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na,? I can't wait to see it.

It is more or less finished. Hopefully, I shall see it published in about 6 months.

With best wishes

Ole Pind

with metta

Tzung-Kuen

Ole Holten Pind <oleholtenpind@...> ?秋飾?赯Ｚ牧???lt;BR>

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Sendt: 20. september 2005 00:50
Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [Pali] How to analyze 'Cirssuta' ?

Dear Dr. Pind

In your first reply, you takes 'no' in the sentence to be of genetive case, functioniing as an agent. Could we just explain it as an instrumental case, which also denotes an agent?

This I regard as not possible, although respectable grammars like the one by Geiger revised by Norman claim that no represents acc. instr. dat, and gen. However, in Sanskrit nas > pali no is never used as an enclitic form of the instrumental case, and we have no reason to believe that pali differs from Sanskrit in this particular respect. Besides it is very common to find, in the pali canon, genitive substantives constructed with ta-participles as denoting the agents of the verbal actions denoted by the participles.

Ole Pind

Cirassutaa no, aavuso aananda, bhagavato sammukhaa dhammii kathaa. (M I 160)

with metta

Tzung-Kuen

Ole Holten Pind <oleholtenpind@...> ?秋飾?赯ａ餈?

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Ttzungkuen Wen
Sendt: 19. september 2005 07:52
Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: SV: [Pali] How to analyze 'Cirssuta' ?

I look for the example you gave, and find CSCD reads 'cira.madi.t.thaa' not
'ciradi.t.thaa'
Does it mean anything important?

No. The CSCD records the Burmese reading as opposed to the Sinhalese one.
Syntactically it makes no difference. It is possible, however, to find
examples of compounds with cira.m, which merely indicates the adverbial
status of the complement.

Best wishes,

Ole Pind

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