Hello Nina, Piya and all friends:
The point here is about real knowledge.
The Blessed one is stating that `these ascetics and brahmans'…
`Go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as
True by the world.'
`Therefore,' [And in that sense only] : `I say that this is wrong on
the part of these ascetics and brahmans'

The Blessed one objects to blind belief, as such, and at the same
time,
Note the emphasis on `accepted by the world'…

>(1) Not everything is due to karma;

Possibly, nothing is outside the cycle of Kama,
As shown by the proceedings of `Dependent origination'.
But any way,
Kama is one of `the imponderables',
Question that speculation about may bring madness.

> (2) Buddhism rejects fatalism (that everything is due to karma).

Fatalism, then, is the inability to change one's fate.
The word `kama', simply, is, off course, action – one can change his
fate by doing something about it, either directly or indirectly,
Hopefully, if by skillful action, he will create `good Kama' for
himself.
This, more than anything else, is the doctrinal points that may
distinguish the Buddhist understanding of Kama.

> (3) One faces one's own karma.

Certainly, and again:
"'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the
matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma I
perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be
reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.'
(dasadhammasutta)

>However, there is no mention whatsoever about "group karma,"
>implicitly Or explicitly.

Thank you for bringing up this all- important question and
observations.

Metta
Jothiko

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@...> wrote:
> Dear Nina,
>
> Nina van Gorkom wrote:
>
> > Dear Paul,
> > I post the Siivakasutta. I also shall post the Co and subco I
translated
> > formerly, but for now the post would be too long. This may
answer some of
> > your questions. No collective kamma has not been taught by the
Buddha.
>
> From a close reading of the Siivaka Sutta, it says two important
things:
> (1) Not everything is due to karma;
> (2) Buddhism rejects fatalism (that everything is due to karma).
>
> One could add a third corollary, that,
>
> (3) One faces one's own karma.
>
> However, there is no mention whatsoever about "group karma,"
implicitly or
> explicitly.
>
> Perhaps there are some other info in the Comy and Sub-Comy that I
have missed.
>
> Don't we all on Pali Yahoo share some kind of group karma, or
overlapping of a common
> interest, in Pali. Saying karma overlapping is not the same as
saying it is the same
> or different karma. The story of the Sakya massacre by Vidudabha
and his own death
> (along with much of his army) in a hugh flood (DhA 4.3) is a clear
example of group
> karma. I know of at least one study (somewhat dated, but still
useful):
>
> James P McDermott, "Is there group karma in Theravada Buddhism?"
(Numen 23,1
> 1976:67-80).
>
> I will welcome info on new studies, as I plan to write an essay on
this summarizing
> various views in the light of the Suttas.
>
> Sukhi
>
> Piya
>
> >  
> > -------
> > SN XXXVI.21
> >
> > The Siivakasutta with the commentary and subcommentary.
> > (extracted from the Burmese CSCD disk, vers. 1.1)
> >
> >  3. a.t.thasatapariyaayavaggo
> >
> >  1. siivakasutta.m
> > sivaka sutta with the translation by Ven. Nyanaponika.
> >  269. eka.m  samaya.m bhagavaa raajagahe viharati ve.luvane
> > kalandakanivaape. atha kho mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako yena
bhagavaa
> > tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavataa saddhi.m sammodi.
> >   sammodaniiya.m katha.m saara.niiya.m viitisaaretvaa ekamanta.m
nisiidi.
> >
> > Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove
Monastery, at
> > the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya
Sivaka by
> > name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of
courteous and
> > friendly words, sat down at one side.
> >
> > ekamanta.m nisinno kho mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako bhagavanta.m
etadavoca --
> > ``santi, bho gotama, eke sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino
eva.mdi.t.thino --
> > `ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa
dukkha.m vaa
> > adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. idha
bhava.m gotamo
> > kimaahaa''ti?
> >
> > Thus seated, he said:
> >
> > "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have
this
> > doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it
pleasure, pain or
> > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous
action.' Now,
> > what does the revered Gotama say about this?"
> >
> >  ``pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi  kho, siivaka, idhekaccaani
vedayitaani
> > uppajjanti. saamampi kho eta.m, siivaka, veditabba.m yathaa
> > pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti;
lokassapi kho
> > eta.m, siivaka, saccasammata.m yathaa pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi
idhekaccaani
> > vedayitaani uppajjanti.
> >
> > "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka,
certain kinds
> > of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in
the world
> > it is accepted as true.
> >
> > tatra, siivaka, ye te sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino
eva.mdi.t.thino --
> > `ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa
dukkha.m vaa
> > adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. ya~nca
saama.m ~naata.m
> > ta~nca atidhaavanti, ya~nca loke saccasammata.m ta~nca
atidhaavanti. tasmaa
> > tesa.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m micchaati vadaami.
> >
> > "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and
view that
> > 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
> > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous
action,' then
> > they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted
as true
> > by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of
these
> > ascetics and brahmans."
> >
> >  ``semhasamu.t.thaanaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0...
vaatasamu.t.thaanaanipi
> > kho, siivaka...pe0... sannipaatikaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0...
> > utupari.naamajaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0...
visamaparihaarajaanipi kho,
> > siivaka...pe0... opakkamikaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0...
kammavipaakajaanipi
> > kho, siivaka, idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti. saamampi kho
eta.m,
> > siivaka, veditabba.m. yathaa kammavipaakajaanipi idhekaccaani 
vedayitaani
> > uppajjanti; lokassapi kho eta.m, siivaka, saccasammata.m.
> >   Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of
> > wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by
adverse
> > behaviour... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through
all that),
> > Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens
can be
> > known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.
> >
> > yathaa kammavipaakajaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti;
> > Nina: according as some feelings arise as the results of kamma,
> >
> > tatra, siivaka, ye te sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino
eva.mdi.t.thino --
> > `ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa
dukkha.m vaa
> > adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. ya~nca
saama.m ~naata.m
> > ta~nca atidhaavanti ya~nca loke saccasammata.m ta~nca
atidhaavanti. tasmaa
> > tesa.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m micchaati vadaamiiti.
> >
> > Ny: "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine
and view that
> > 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
> > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous
action,' then
> > they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted
as true
> > by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of
these
> > ascetics and brahmans.²
> >
> > eva.m vutte, mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako bhagavanta.m etadavoca -
-
> > `abhikkanta.m, bho gotama, abhikkanta.m, bho gotama ...pe0...
upaasaka.m
> > ma.m bhava.m gotamo dhaaretu ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m sara.na.m
gata'''nti.
> >
> > When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic,
said: "It is
> > excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!... May the
revered
> > Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken
refuge in
> > him as long as life lasts."
> >
> >  ``pitta.m semha~nca vaato ca, sannipaataa utuuni ca.
> >  visama.m opakkamika.m, kammavipaakena a.t.thamii''ti..
pa.thama.m.
> > Nina: <bile, phlegm and winds, bodily humours and climate.
adverse
> > behaviour, injury, with result of kamma they are eight.>, was
said. the
> > first sutta.
> > *****
> > Nina.
> > op 13-09-2005 19:31 schreef Sumana op paulocuana@...:
> > >
> > > I have come by the belief that not all results, i.e.,
> > > not everything that happens,  is a result of kamma.
> > > Allowance is made for things happening due to someone
> > > else's unwholesome actions or even indeed allowance is
> > > made for things happening in the natural world subject
> > > to its own laws other than those of kamma.
> >
> >
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