Dear Nina,

Nina van Gorkom wrote:

> Dear Paul,
> I post the Siivakasutta. I also shall post the Co and subco I translated
> formerly, but for now the post would be too long. This may answer some of
> your questions. No collective kamma has not been taught by the Buddha.

From a close reading of the Siivaka Sutta, it says two important things:
(1) Not everything is due to karma;
(2) Buddhism rejects fatalism (that everything is due to karma).

One could add a third corollary, that,

(3) One faces one's own karma.

However, there is no mention whatsoever about "group karma," implicitly or
explicitly.

Perhaps there are some other info in the Comy and Sub-Comy that I have missed.

Don't we all on Pali Yahoo share some kind of group karma, or overlapping of a common
interest, in Pali. Saying karma overlapping is not the same as saying it is the same
or different karma. The story of the Sakya massacre by Vidudabha and his own death
(along with much of his army) in a hugh flood (DhA 4.3) is a clear example of group
karma. I know of at least one study (somewhat dated, but still useful):

James P McDermott, "Is there group karma in Theravada Buddhism?" (Numen 23,1
1976:67-80).

I will welcome info on new studies, as I plan to write an essay on this summarizing
various views in the light of the Suttas.

Sukhi

Piya

>  
> -------
> SN XXXVI.21
>
> The Siivakasutta with the commentary and subcommentary.
> (extracted from the Burmese CSCD disk, vers. 1.1)
>
>  3. a.t.thasatapariyaayavaggo
>
>  1. siivakasutta.m
> sivaka sutta with the translation by Ven. Nyanaponika.
>  269. eka.m  samaya.m bhagavaa raajagahe viharati ve.luvane
> kalandakanivaape. atha kho mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako yena bhagavaa
> tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavataa saddhi.m sammodi.
>   sammodaniiya.m katha.m saara.niiya.m viitisaaretvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi.
>
> Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at
> the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by
> name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and
> friendly words, sat down at one side.
>
> ekamanta.m nisinno kho mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako bhagavanta.m etadavoca --
> ``santi, bho gotama, eke sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino eva.mdi.t.thino --
> `ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa
> adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. idha bhava.m gotamo
> kimaahaa''ti?
>
> Thus seated, he said:
>
> "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this
> doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
> neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now,
> what does the revered Gotama say about this?"
>
>  ``pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi  kho, siivaka, idhekaccaani vedayitaani
> uppajjanti. saamampi kho eta.m, siivaka, veditabba.m yathaa
> pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti; lokassapi kho
> eta.m, siivaka, saccasammata.m yathaa pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi idhekaccaani
> vedayitaani uppajjanti.
>
> "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds
> of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world
> it is accepted as true.
>
> tatra, siivaka, ye te sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino eva.mdi.t.thino --
> `ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa
> adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. ya~nca saama.m ~naata.m
> ta~nca atidhaavanti, ya~nca loke saccasammata.m ta~nca atidhaavanti. tasmaa
> tesa.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m micchaati vadaami.
>
> "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that
> 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
> neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then
> they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true
> by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these
> ascetics and brahmans."
>
>  ``semhasamu.t.thaanaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0... vaatasamu.t.thaanaanipi
> kho, siivaka...pe0... sannipaatikaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0...
> utupari.naamajaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0... visamaparihaarajaanipi kho,
> siivaka...pe0... opakkamikaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0... kammavipaakajaanipi
> kho, siivaka, idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti. saamampi kho eta.m,
> siivaka, veditabba.m. yathaa kammavipaakajaanipi idhekaccaani  vedayitaani
> uppajjanti; lokassapi kho eta.m, siivaka, saccasammata.m.
>   Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of
> wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse
> behaviour... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that),
> Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be
> known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.
>
> yathaa kammavipaakajaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti;
> Nina: according as some feelings arise as the results of kamma,
>
> tatra, siivaka, ye te sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino eva.mdi.t.thino --
> `ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa
> adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. ya~nca saama.m ~naata.m
> ta~nca atidhaavanti ya~nca loke saccasammata.m ta~nca atidhaavanti. tasmaa
> tesa.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m micchaati vadaamiiti.
>
> Ny: "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that
> 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
> neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then
> they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true
> by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these
> ascetics and brahmans.²
>
> eva.m vutte, mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako bhagavanta.m etadavoca --
> `abhikkanta.m, bho gotama, abhikkanta.m, bho gotama ...pe0... upaasaka.m
> ma.m bhava.m gotamo dhaaretu ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m sara.na.m gata'''nti.
>
> When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is
> excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!... May the revered
> Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in
> him as long as life lasts."
>
>  ``pitta.m semha~nca vaato ca, sannipaataa utuuni ca.
>  visama.m opakkamika.m, kammavipaakena a.t.thamii''ti.. pa.thama.m.
> Nina: <bile, phlegm and winds, bodily humours and climate. adverse
> behaviour, injury, with result of kamma they are eight.>, was said. the
> first sutta.
> *****
> Nina.
> op 13-09-2005 19:31 schreef Sumana op paulocuana@...:
> >
> > I have come by the belief that not all results, i.e.,
> > not everything that happens,  is a result of kamma.
> > Allowance is made for things happening due to someone
> > else's unwholesome actions or even indeed allowance is
> > made for things happening in the natural world subject
> > to its own laws other than those of kamma.
>
>
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