Dear Steve & friends,

Do examine suttas like the short remarkable Cakkhu Sutta (S 25.1)and the Sa'upadisesa Sutta(A 9.12). They show how easy it is to gain the path, esp Sotapanna.

Sometimes I wonder if the way Abhidhamma and "Vipassana" are presented today actually discourages people from the fact that awakening is not as difficult as it has been shown to be.

I'm not talking about Arhathood, but Stream-winning.

Sukhi

Piya

--- seisen_au <seisen_@...> wrote:

> Hi Dmytro and All,
>
> >Dmytro wrote:
> > Stream-entry is also 'supermundane path and fruition', so the
> >passage
> > you cited does not refer to the attainment of Nibbana.
>
> My understanding is that a sotaapannas 'supermundane path and
> fruition' is synonymous with the attainment of Nibbana.
>
> From Mahathera Ledi Sayadaws CATUSACCA-DIPANI>
> "From the moment they attain the Path of stream-winning, they are
> delivered from such evils as sakkaya-ditthi (personality-belief),
> vicikiccha, ducarita-durajiva (evil actions and bad livelihood), and
>
> apaya-dukkha, and have thus attained sa-upadisesa-nibbana"
>
> http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL05.html
>
>
> > There is no argument that stream-entry is attainble without
> jhana.
> >
> > "... a certain person is complete in virtues, incomplete in
> > concentration and incomplete in wisdom. Destroying three bonds he
>
> > transmigrates as a human or god the most seven times and makes end
>
> of
> > unpleasantness. Saariputta, this is the eighth person who dies
> with
> > substratum, released, from hell, from animal birth, from the
> sphere
> of
> > ghosts and released from loss and hellish births."
> >
> > However further progress requires completion of concentration
> > development, see "Sa-upaadisesasutta.m - With substratum
> remaining", AN
> > 4.378.
> >
> > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
> Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanipata/002-sihanadavaggo-e.htm
>
> Notes from Narada Maha Theras translation of Abhidhammattha
> Sangaha>
>
> Saupadisesa - Sa = with; upadi = aggregates (mind and body); sesa =
>
> remaining. Upadi, derived from upa + a + da, to take, means the five
>
> aggregates as they are firmly grasped by craving and false views. It
>
> also signifies passions (kilesas).
> According to the text and the Commentarial interpretations, Nibbana,
>
> experienced by Sotapannas, Sakadagamis, and Anagamis, is
> saupadisesa-
> nibbanadhatu as they have the body and some passions still
> remaining.
> Nibbana of the Arahats is also saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu as they have
>
> the body still remaining. It is only the Nibbana of the Arahats
> after
> their death that is termed anupadisesa-nibbanadhatu because the
> aggregates and the passions are discarded by them.
>
> http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/sangaha.htm
>
> Reading the suttas you and I have quoted with the above commentarial
>
> interpretation, all Ariyan beings including Sotapannas have
> experienced Nibbana (saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu) at attainment of
> lokuttara magga.
>
>
> Rgrds
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
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