Hi Chris,

That particular example that you quote, which is from the Anattalakkhana
Sutta, rather than the First Sermon, is not sufficient evidence that
jhaana had not already been achieved by those five monks as they had
already spent the Rainy Season practising as instructed by the Buddha.
The First Sermon, after which Venerable Kondañña attained Stream-
winning, is also not conclusive evidence. It seems unlikely to me that
the Bodhisatta, who was adept in Jhaana, had not shared his knowledge of
it with the five ascetics who accompanied him for six years. Perhaps,
though, since he had abandoned it as not the path to nibbaana, he did
not teach it. And as they were engaged in the practice of self-
mortification, it seems to me that the bliss of jhaana would not fit
well with that practice.

Certainly, there are plenty of examples like the First Sermon, where
disciples gained magga and phala merely after listening to the Dhamma.

The case of Baahiya Daruciriya comes to mind. He had travelled right
across India on hearing about the Buddha for the first time, and
requested the Buddha to teach the Dhamma while he was on almsround. The
Buddha gave a very brief teaching and Baahiya attained Arahantship
immediately. One wonders whether it was necessary or even possible for
him to develop the jhaanas in just a few seconds.

Then there is the case of Saariputta and Moggallaana who both attained
nibbaana after listening to a brief verse. No instruction on Samatha
meditation was given to them. The teaching was on Dependent Origination.
I wouldn't call it an intellectual understanding though, more like
intuitive realisation.

If one wants conclusive proof, one should practice vipassanaa meditation
according to the instructions of those who have attained nibbaana, then
one will understand that at least access concentration is essential to
attain insight, but that jhaana is not.

If one thinks that jhaana is essential, as several teachers claim, one
may cultivate it for a year or two first. I don't see any harm in that,
unless one dies before finishing the meditation course. I am sure that
insight will come much more easily if one has already gained jhaana
previously. However adept one becomes in jhaana, one may fail to gain
magga and phala if one's perfections are not yet ripe, or if one fails
to find the appropriate guidance.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Chris André Stranden <bobtarzan@...> wrote:
> Hello again folks! :-)
>
> Thanks for all your interesting viewpoints on this subject!
>
> I was just wondering: Is the following excerpt from the Buddha's first
> sermon a valid argument for the view that it is possible to realise
Nibbana
> through only an intellectual understanding of Dhamma?
>
> "That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus of the group of five
were
> glad, and they delighted in his words. Now while this discourse was
being
> delivered the hearts of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated
> from taints through not clinging.
> And there were then six Arahants, six accomplished ones, in the
> world."
>
> Or at least - Are such stories a valid argument against the view that it
is
> nessecary to achive the jhanas before it is possible to realise Nibbana?
>
> Best regards,
> Chris André Stranden