Hello Ole Pind
I guess that it is not really clear to me what the difference between
"truth" and "reality" is. I have been turning them around in my head, and
can't really seem to make a distinction. I, in fact, thought that Norman
was basically agreeing with you, so it was a surprise to me to see that you
disagreed so strongly. To give an example. If I say that I went to the zoo
and "I saw the truth that there are elephants there" or I say that "I saw
the reality that there are elephants there," is there really a difference?
Are you using two fairly specific definitions for these words that are not
allowing overlap? Would it be possible to give us the definitions of
"truth" and "reality" that you have in mind? I would really like to
understand this.
Metta,
Alan
p.s. I would love to read your article but am not familiar with what ZDMG
Band 155 Heft 2" signifies. I assume that it is an abreviation for a
journal, and will try to find it with this info., but if there is a full
name to the journal? It might be helpful to me. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:13 AM
Subject: SV: [Pali] Re: Ariyasaccaani: realities to ariyas
I just want to add that the use of sacca in the Paali canon in general does
not support the idea that it denotes truth. All instances known to me
indicate that sacca primarily denotes something real, an incontrovertible
fact, reality. Cf. the canonical phrase saccato thetato. The commentators
gloss saccato as bhuutato.
Ole Pind
PS If any of you wants to get an idea of what I regard as a philological
approach, I would like to refer you to my recently published article "On the
Evidence of Unrecognized Absolutives in the Paali Canon" ZDMG Band 155 Heft
2.
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ole
Holten Pind
Sendt: 18. august 2005 09:47
Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Emne: SV: [Pali] Re: Ariyasaccaani: realities to ariyas
Hello,
Norman's suggestion is impossible and does not represent an instance of
"philological approach" to the study of early Buddhism. As I have already
indicated in my remarks with reference to the analysis of the saccaani in
Pa.tisambhidaamagga (a commentary on select from the Sacca-sa.myutta) and
Vibha.nga, these texts do not treat the saccaani as truths, but rather as
realities. As soon as one gives up the untenable idea that sacca denotes
truth, everything becomes clear. Dmytro added a number of useful references
from the commentaries that support my analysis. The commentators rely on
Pa.tis and Vibh for their interpretations.
Best regards,
Ole Pind
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Alan
McClure
Sendt: 18. august 2005 01:47
Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [Pali] Re: Ariyasaccaani: realities to ariyas
Hello All,
Here is an interesting bit I just came across by K.R. Norman regarding this
issue:
"Take for example the phrase "noble truth"...it has become commonplace to
talk about the four noble truths, and this is a prefectly acceptable
translation of the compound ariya-sacca: ariya manes noble and sacca means
truth, so ariya-sacca means noble truth. This translation is so common and
so fixed in our minds, that it seems almost like blasphemy to have to point
out that not only is this not the only possible translation, but it is in
fact the least likely of all the possibilities.
If we look at the commentators we find that they knew this very well. They
point out that the compound can have a number of meanings. It can mean
"Truth of the Noble One," "truth of the noble ones," "truth for a noble
one," i.e. truth that will make one noble, as well as the translation "noble
truth" so familiar to us. This last possibility, however, they put at the
bottom of the list of possiblities, if they mention it at all. My own
feeling is that it is very likely that "the truth of the Noble One (the
Buddha)" is the correct translation, although we must never lose sight of
the fact that in Indian literature multiple meanings are very often
intended, so that it is not always possible to say that there is a single
correct meaning."
From: "A Philological Approach to Buddhism" p. 16 by K.R. Norman
And by the way, I asked about this book the other day, to see if any of you
found it interesting. I have to say that I find it very interesting, and it
is worth taking a look at in my opinion.
Metta,
Alan
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