Hello June,

I'm under the impression that it is a popular misconception that what people
normally refer to as dry insight, or insight only does not include the idea
of leading to concentration at all. After all, "Right Concentration" can't
be ignored as part of the Eightfold path. I think that a more realistic way
of wording things is to say that dry insight or insight only do not develop
concentration via samatha, but, as the sutta I cited points out,
concentration is developed naturally as insight into the Dhamma increases
and doubts are destroyed. This is what the Yuganaddha Sutta is pointing
out, I believe. So, of the four sections of the sutta, in reality, we are
only seeing two methods and the first has three subdivisions.

The first method is using a combination of practicing vipassanaa and samatha
leading to Jhaana.
The three subdivisions are:
1) samatha first and then vipassanaa
2) vipassanaa first and then samatha
3) vipassanaa and samatha concurrently or "In Tandem"
These are the first three parts of the Yuganaddha Sutta.

The second method is that insight and concentration arise through study,
learning from a teacher, mindfulness, etc (but not samatha). In this way,
insight arises and doubts about the Dhamma are dispelled, and the mind
becomes calmed and steadied in the Dhamma. This is the fourth part of the
aforementioned Yuganaddha Sutta.

Let me mention that I cannot vouch for one side or the other of the argument
about whether insight only is a possible means to enlightenment, nor do I
want to take part in a debate that seems to have no end. However, I just
thought it would be interesting to point out this sutta where it does seem
that insight only, or dry insight is mentioned, even if briefly.

Metta,

Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: "junet9876" <junet9876@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:12 PM
Subject: [Pali] Re: Jhana


That's interesting. Thanks for the information Alan. Do you by any
chance know what it means to develop insight before calm, or do you
know of any sites that talk about it?...I've heard of the system where
one first develops calm (samatha) then insight (vipassana), and also
one where one develops insight alone. But I've never heard do insight
first then calm.

Thanks,
June